While on a mooring(on vacation) the (2)house batteries are drained by the refrigerator. I need to run the engine almost every day and sometimes 2x to recharge the batteries. During the rest of the season the boat is on a slip with shore power. As the refrigerator is as old as the boat E328-200 1989, are there more efficient units that would fit in the same space . This is a 12v unit. And what kind of batteries should be used for the house. I'd appreciate hearing from some one with similar problems.
Refrigerator drains (2)house batteries E38-200
- Thread starter FrankJ
- Start date
treilley
Sustaining Partner
Yes Frank, this is probably normal. What is the capacity of your house batteries? There are definitely more efficient setups out there. You probably have an Aldor-Barbor(sp) like mine. I have a house bank with 215ah. I can run the fridge all day but need to run the engine in the evening to bring the batteries back up to charge for the next day. This is why I do not run my fridge unless also running the engine. We primarily rely on ice for cooling.
Just for the record, your normal instruments, lighting, radio, etc that you use every day while out cruising will also require you to run the engine to top up the batteries. Just not as long.
A good battery monitor will help you manage your load and charging requirements. I use the Victron 602. It tells me how much energy I am using and how long to run the engine to replenish the house bank.
I use two 6v batteries wired in series to get 12v and 215ah.
Just for the record, your normal instruments, lighting, radio, etc that you use every day while out cruising will also require you to run the engine to top up the batteries. Just not as long.
A good battery monitor will help you manage your load and charging requirements. I use the Victron 602. It tells me how much energy I am using and how long to run the engine to replenish the house bank.
I use two 6v batteries wired in series to get 12v and 215ah.
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Steve
Member III
Diesel charging
Agree with Tim, your likely getting all you can out of what you have to work with. Either increase bank size, increase insulation in the box, or add supplemental ice or dry-ice and turn the fridge down to get more cycling.
However my question comes with battery charging by running the diesel while stationary. I've read and been told by various folks that running the diesel with only the small load of the alternator (I have a 90 amp) is not such a hot idea for engine life issues. Literally it might not heat up to operating temp. Agree a diesel likes a load, but unclear if running the engine at 1200 -1500 rpm for an hour or so is good or bad ??? any gear-heads out there?
Steve e35-3 1984
Agree with Tim, your likely getting all you can out of what you have to work with. Either increase bank size, increase insulation in the box, or add supplemental ice or dry-ice and turn the fridge down to get more cycling.
However my question comes with battery charging by running the diesel while stationary. I've read and been told by various folks that running the diesel with only the small load of the alternator (I have a 90 amp) is not such a hot idea for engine life issues. Literally it might not heat up to operating temp. Agree a diesel likes a load, but unclear if running the engine at 1200 -1500 rpm for an hour or so is good or bad ??? any gear-heads out there?
Steve e35-3 1984
compressor getting old?
This amp hour drain problem puzzles me. (Actually, at my age, lots of things puzzle me...)
My boat is a year older than the '89 model 38 footer that starts this thread. I installed a Frigoboat system with keel cooler type heat exchanger. I can run the fridge full time and have plenty of battery reserve to start the engine after anchoring out 48 hours.
My ice box seems reasonably well insulated by the factory and is probably not as large as the one on a late-model 38, but still...
Anyone know what the actual ice box cubic footage is on an '89 E-38-200?
For comparison, our house bank consists of two Trojan T-145 six volt batteries. Specs on their web site currently rate a pair of these at 260 AH ("20 hour rate").
And to add frozen insult to injury, every time we turn up the little thermostat dial to anything much over "5", everything in the fridge freezes solid and all of the pop cans explode...
Regards,
Loren
This amp hour drain problem puzzles me. (Actually, at my age, lots of things puzzle me...)
My boat is a year older than the '89 model 38 footer that starts this thread. I installed a Frigoboat system with keel cooler type heat exchanger. I can run the fridge full time and have plenty of battery reserve to start the engine after anchoring out 48 hours.
My ice box seems reasonably well insulated by the factory and is probably not as large as the one on a late-model 38, but still...
Anyone know what the actual ice box cubic footage is on an '89 E-38-200?
For comparison, our house bank consists of two Trojan T-145 six volt batteries. Specs on their web site currently rate a pair of these at 260 AH ("20 hour rate").
And to add frozen insult to injury, every time we turn up the little thermostat dial to anything much over "5", everything in the fridge freezes solid and all of the pop cans explode...
Regards,
Loren
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tenders
Innocent Bystander
I suspect that Loren's keel cooler is all the difference in efficiency compared to what is probably an air-cooled Adler Barbour system on the original poster's boat. It is a lot of work to get a significant amount of heat pushed from the fridge into warm or hot air.
I don't run my Adler Barbour system for any length of time without the engine being on, either.
If I were designing a boat from scratch it would include an AC icemaker, an AC refrigeration unit, a large alternator, and no DC refrigeration at all. Underway, the icemaker and refrigeration unit would be powered by a sizable inverter driven off the alternator and batteries when the engine was on, and the ice would be used to keep the box cool when the engine was off.
This isn't the world's most efficient system, to be sure, but neither is running a big engine to try to stuff energy into relatively small batteries with a relatively small alternator to cool the icebox using a relatively small compressor. And it is simple.
I don't run my Adler Barbour system for any length of time without the engine being on, either.
If I were designing a boat from scratch it would include an AC icemaker, an AC refrigeration unit, a large alternator, and no DC refrigeration at all. Underway, the icemaker and refrigeration unit would be powered by a sizable inverter driven off the alternator and batteries when the engine was on, and the ice would be used to keep the box cool when the engine was off.
This isn't the world's most efficient system, to be sure, but neither is running a big engine to try to stuff energy into relatively small batteries with a relatively small alternator to cool the icebox using a relatively small compressor. And it is simple.
Sven
Seglare
What you are describing is basically an inverter-run holding-plate system except the typical holding-plate uses a more efficient medium for storing and releasing cold than ice. A holding plate system with a keel cooler would probably be even more efficient.
-Sven
u079721
Contributing Partner
This amp hour drain problem puzzles me. (Actually, at my age, lots of things puzzle me...)
My boat is a year older than the '89 model 38 footer that starts this thread. I installed a Frigoboat system with keel cooler type heat exchanger. I can run the fridge full time and have plenty of battery reserve to start the engine after anchoring out 48 hours.
My ice box seems reasonably well insulated by the factory and is probably not as large as the one on a late-model 38, but still...
Anyone know what the actual ice box cubic footage is on an '89 E-38-200?
For comparison, our house bank consists of two Trojan T-145 six volt batteries. Specs on their web site currently rate a pair of these at 260 AH ("20 hour rate").
And to add frozen insult to injury, every time we turn up the little thermostat dial to anything much over "5", everything in the fridge freezes solid and all of the pop cans explode...
Regards,
Loren
I always meant to measure the actual volume of our E38-200 icebox, but never got around to it. But I can confirm that it is HUGE. When stocking the box at the beginning of a cruise we would start with TEN blocks of ice, and still have room for all our food and drinks. We might then add a bag or two of cubes that would fit into all the corners. Don't think it was very well insulated either. So we never ran the fridge unless we were motoring.
The nice thing about all that room for ice was that we could go a week without charging the batteries when anchored out.
tenders
Innocent Bystander
Yes, absolutely, but more complicated to plumb and maintain.
Ice, Space, and Foam...
Looking over Steve's real-world information about his ice box contents...
IF one can assume that a regular block of ice is ten pounds, then according to one vendor that would measure 10" X 7.5" X 5". That would be 375 cubic inches or approx .22 cubic foot.
Ten blocks would be about 2.2 cubic feet.
If you throw in another two bags that less-efficiently put the weight of cube ice into a bit more actual space, you might still be a tad under three cubic feet, in reality.
Then, having room for all the food he would pack in for vacation for two adults, you would indeed have an ice box that must be over five cu. feet, would be my rough estimate. :nerd: "Huge" indeed!
My ice box was spray-foam insulated by the factory, about two inches thick or a bit more. Lid was not insulated so I added an inch of rigid foil-face foam to the underside and "sealed" the lid channel with thin weather-strip foam.
I measured the capacity and calculated it to be approx. 3 cu. feet.
The only change in spec for a fridge unit for the E-38 that I can imagine would be a larger evaporator for the inside of the box. Same compressor (model 50) and same keel cooler.
Next, if the E-38 does not have enough insulation, start adding to the outside or seriously consider adding hard-face one inch foam panels to the inside faces of the ice box first.
I am no expert -- just thinkin' out loud here.....
Best
Loren
ps: Let's keep this thread connected, somewhat, to the earlier Fridge thread: http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?t=1663&referrerid=28
Looking over Steve's real-world information about his ice box contents...
IF one can assume that a regular block of ice is ten pounds, then according to one vendor that would measure 10" X 7.5" X 5". That would be 375 cubic inches or approx .22 cubic foot.
Ten blocks would be about 2.2 cubic feet.
If you throw in another two bags that less-efficiently put the weight of cube ice into a bit more actual space, you might still be a tad under three cubic feet, in reality.
Then, having room for all the food he would pack in for vacation for two adults, you would indeed have an ice box that must be over five cu. feet, would be my rough estimate. :nerd: "Huge" indeed!
My ice box was spray-foam insulated by the factory, about two inches thick or a bit more. Lid was not insulated so I added an inch of rigid foil-face foam to the underside and "sealed" the lid channel with thin weather-strip foam.
I measured the capacity and calculated it to be approx. 3 cu. feet.
The only change in spec for a fridge unit for the E-38 that I can imagine would be a larger evaporator for the inside of the box. Same compressor (model 50) and same keel cooler.
Next, if the E-38 does not have enough insulation, start adding to the outside or seriously consider adding hard-face one inch foam panels to the inside faces of the ice box first.
I am no expert -- just thinkin' out loud here.....
Best
Loren
ps: Let's keep this thread connected, somewhat, to the earlier Fridge thread: http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?t=1663&referrerid=28
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u079721
Contributing Partner
Another thing.....
Another thing that really helps is to have some foam around to use to fill in any free space in the box as the food gets used up or the ice melts. Part of my morning routine while cruising was to switch the valves and use the galley sea-water foot pump to pump the melt water out of the ice box. Counting up and down as one stroke, I would typically get 20 to 25 strokes each morning to pump out all the water that had melted off the ice in the previous 24 hours, so I had a crude but quantitative measure of heat loss. After a few days when the ice began to shrink this value would go up. I found that if I then stuffed a foam cockpit cushion on top of the food the pump count went back down. By the end of the week I was using two cushions.
Not as good as adding extra insulation all around, but it did help.
Another thing that really helps is to have some foam around to use to fill in any free space in the box as the food gets used up or the ice melts. Part of my morning routine while cruising was to switch the valves and use the galley sea-water foot pump to pump the melt water out of the ice box. Counting up and down as one stroke, I would typically get 20 to 25 strokes each morning to pump out all the water that had melted off the ice in the previous 24 hours, so I had a crude but quantitative measure of heat loss. After a few days when the ice began to shrink this value would go up. I found that if I then stuffed a foam cockpit cushion on top of the food the pump count went back down. By the end of the week I was using two cushions.
Not as good as adding extra insulation all around, but it did help.
ted_reshetiloff
Contributing Partner
Something does not sound right here. my adler barbour air cooled refer pulls 60 amps in a 24hr period in the hottest months on the chesapeake. With two group 31 batteries i have about a 210 amp hour capacity. never running below 50% depth of discharge gives me 100 ah to work with. the refer takes 60 leaving me with 40 for everything else. i have never pulled more than 75-80 total in a 24hr period. i think:
1. your batteries are not in very good shape
2. you dont have a battery monitor and dont really know how much juice the refer is pulling.
3. something is wrong with your refer.
4. You have dirty or corroded connections somewhere causing a lot of resistance.
5. SOme combination of all of the above?
For sure there are more efficient units available now but the old air cooled alderbarbour is not that bad. I'm sticking with mine until it dies. Then I will go to a keel cooler model. Newer units have a variable speed compressors that get the amp draw down to around 4 or less amps when running. Given the insulation on the e-38 box the unit will still need to run roughly 1/2 of the time or 12 hrs per day. But at 4 amps that only 48 ah, with a 210 ah bank you still have 52 ah to play with. Shold be plenty of power.
Cold plate systems like sea frost seem rediculous to me as you have to run the engine to charge them or maintain two compressors to run one off shore power. Using an inverter to run an ac compressor is very in efficient. You also have to be a refridgeration expert to maintain the system which is no fun in the tropics. 12v danfoss compressors are the way to go. Solar power if you have a hard top bimini can produce enuf juice to keep up and then you dont need no engine. but thats a whole other story...
As for hauling ice. The only way you will catch me doing that is in cube form for me rum drinks. Heeyarrr!
1. your batteries are not in very good shape
2. you dont have a battery monitor and dont really know how much juice the refer is pulling.
3. something is wrong with your refer.
4. You have dirty or corroded connections somewhere causing a lot of resistance.
5. SOme combination of all of the above?
For sure there are more efficient units available now but the old air cooled alderbarbour is not that bad. I'm sticking with mine until it dies. Then I will go to a keel cooler model. Newer units have a variable speed compressors that get the amp draw down to around 4 or less amps when running. Given the insulation on the e-38 box the unit will still need to run roughly 1/2 of the time or 12 hrs per day. But at 4 amps that only 48 ah, with a 210 ah bank you still have 52 ah to play with. Shold be plenty of power.
Cold plate systems like sea frost seem rediculous to me as you have to run the engine to charge them or maintain two compressors to run one off shore power. Using an inverter to run an ac compressor is very in efficient. You also have to be a refridgeration expert to maintain the system which is no fun in the tropics. 12v danfoss compressors are the way to go. Solar power if you have a hard top bimini can produce enuf juice to keep up and then you dont need no engine. but thats a whole other story...
As for hauling ice. The only way you will catch me doing that is in cube form for me rum drinks. Heeyarrr!
treilley
Sustaining Partner
Ditto Ted.
Willpatten
Member II
E39-200 ice box
Loren, I measured my 1990 box last week and it was 7.5 cubic feet.
Loren, I measured my 1990 box last week and it was 7.5 cubic feet.
Fridge
Something does not sound right here. my adler barbour air cooled refer pulls 60 amps in a 24hr period in the hottest months on the chesapeake. With two group 31 batteries i have about a 210 amp hour capacity. never running below 50% depth of discharge gives me 100 ah to work with. the refer takes 60 leaving me with 40 for everything else. i have never pulled more than 75-80 total in a 24hr period. i think:
1. your batteries are not in very good shape
2. you dont have a battery monitor and dont really know how much juice the refer is pulling.
3. something is wrong with your refer.
4. You have dirty or corroded connections somewhere causing a lot of resistance.
5. SOme combination of all of the above?
For sure there are more efficient units available now but the old air cooled alderbarbour is not that bad. I'm sticking with mine until it dies. w. 12v danfoss compressors are the way to go. (quote/)
I have to agree with Ted here. My old A-B Cold Machine (Danfoss 2.5) still runs great. I may soon have to replace the evaporator but I'll do that when it gets too corroded to stand the sight of it in the fridge. The newer units may be more efficient but they are also less reliable.
I think you're asking for trouble when you mix salt water cooling with electrical stuff so I think air cooled is the way to go. The keel cooler might be ok but I can't recommend the water cooled condenser system.
We use ours in Florida and the Bahamas. We run it 24/7 when we cruise and it makes ice for my rum. The fan recently quit on mine so I replaced it with two 12v muffin fans. One blowing through the condenser and the other aimed at the control box.
Our house bank batteries are currently 10 years old. They are two Prevailer (German made) gel cells. I think they are about 200 or maybe 220 amp hours total. I can't find them listed in the catalog but they measure about 13x13x10 ... I thought they were Group 31s but the measurements don't jibe. I may replace them soon but it'll likely be with two GC-2 6 volt batteries ($74 each at Sam's Club). I'm thinking about adding two more and a 100 amp alternator but I need to resolve the belt drive issue first.
Anyway, we have a Kyocera 120 watt solar panel and that provides sufficient power in daylight but over night we run about 50 to 70 amp hour deficit which we make up by running the engine an hour or two. The fridge itself appears to use about 5amps when the compressor kicks in and less than one when it cycles. Even if the compressor ran all the time it would only run 120 amp hours so I would agree with Ted and the idea that maybe your system needs a tune up.
I'd suggest you start with Richard Kollman's forums or his Website Home Page. He has a wealth of info there ...
I would also recommend that anyone thinking of an extended cruise, even if it's only down into the Caribbean or Mexico, get real familiar with the workings of your refrigeration system and be prepared to deal with issues yourself. These systems are pretty simple and anyone with average McGiver skills should be able to fix them. Get Richard's Books to start with.
It's hard to beat cruising your boat and kicking back with ice clinking in the glass as you watch the sunset from your cockpit, one arm around your better half... Seems to make all the effort worth it.
chasandjudy
chas and judy
Something does not sound right here. my adler barbour air cooled refer pulls 60 amps in a 24hr period in the hottest months on the chesapeake. With two group 31 batteries i have about a 210 amp hour capacity. never running below 50% depth of discharge gives me 100 ah to work with. the refer takes 60 leaving me with 40 for everything else. i have never pulled more than 75-80 total in a 24hr period. i think:
1. your batteries are not in very good shape
2. you dont have a battery monitor and dont really know how much juice the refer is pulling.
3. something is wrong with your refer.
4. You have dirty or corroded connections somewhere causing a lot of resistance.
5. SOme combination of all of the above?
For sure there are more efficient units available now but the old air cooled alderbarbour is not that bad. I'm sticking with mine until it dies. w. 12v danfoss compressors are the way to go. (quote/)
I have to agree with Ted here. My old A-B Cold Machine (Danfoss 2.5) still runs great. I may soon have to replace the evaporator but I'll do that when it gets too corroded to stand the sight of it in the fridge. The newer units may be more efficient but they are also less reliable.
I think you're asking for trouble when you mix salt water cooling with electrical stuff so I think air cooled is the way to go. The keel cooler might be ok but I can't recommend the water cooled condenser system.
We use ours in Florida and the Bahamas. We run it 24/7 when we cruise and it makes ice for my rum. The fan recently quit on mine so I replaced it with two 12v muffin fans. One blowing through the condenser and the other aimed at the control box.
Our house bank batteries are currently 10 years old. They are two Prevailer (German made) gel cells. I think they are about 200 or maybe 220 amp hours total. I can't find them listed in the catalog but they measure about 13x13x10 ... I thought they were Group 31s but the measurements don't jibe. I may replace them soon but it'll likely be with two GC-2 6 volt batteries ($74 each at Sam's Club). I'm thinking about adding two more and a 100 amp alternator but I need to resolve the belt drive issue first.
Anyway, we have a Kyocera 120 watt solar panel and that provides sufficient power in daylight but over night we run about 50 to 70 amp hour deficit which we make up by running the engine an hour or two. The fridge itself appears to use about 5amps when the compressor kicks in and less than one when it cycles. Even if the compressor ran all the time it would only run 120 amp hours so I would agree with Ted and the idea that maybe your system needs a tune up.
I'd suggest you start with Richard Kollman's forums or his Website Home Page. He has a wealth of info there ...
I would also recommend that anyone thinking of an extended cruise, even if it's only down into the Caribbean or Mexico, get real familiar with the workings of your refrigeration system and be prepared to deal with issues yourself. These systems are pretty simple and anyone with average McGiver skills should be able to fix them. Get Richard's Books to start with.
It's hard to beat cruising your boat and kicking back with ice clinking in the glass as you watch the sunset from your cockpit, one arm around your better half... Seems to make all the effort worth it.
Short note from sv-Eden E30+,, Be sure your fridge has lots of fresh air,(fore and aft) cut some holes if necessary, screen them and put some nice teak trim around. screen will keep the dust out and do not forget to vacume them every once in a while. I have two 80 amp batteries I can anchor about 28 hrs
before charging I also carry a small gas generator (600 watts) I had to use it once this season stores easy, wieghs 45 lbs and will recharge both batteries in about 2 hrs using about a pint of gasoline
Chas and Judi
Willpatten
Member II
7.5 cubic foot reefer
Is sea cow tasty?
Is sea cow tasty?
ted_reshetiloff
Contributing Partner
I cant speak to the sea cow but 7.5 cubic feet of reefer I may be able to provide some consulting on
7.5 cubic foot reefer
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Is sea cow tasty?
7.5 cubic foot reefer
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Is sea cow tasty?
Wow. I appreciate everyones thoughts on my refrigerator/battery problems.
I 'll need to check the boat batteries that I had replaced last year. I don't believe there gel type and don't know what their amp hour capacity is.I have noticed that the copper tubing from the AD compressor to the ice box sweats and does not have foam insulation around it. The AD unit is a Model DCM-12 with a voltage range of 9.5(out) 11(in) with amp -4.5 5.5. I don't know how much juice the refrig is pulling. The refrig wiring connections appear to be clean.Until I correct the problem i can use block ice.
I 'll need to check the boat batteries that I had replaced last year. I don't believe there gel type and don't know what their amp hour capacity is.I have noticed that the copper tubing from the AD compressor to the ice box sweats and does not have foam insulation around it. The AD unit is a Model DCM-12 with a voltage range of 9.5(out) 11(in) with amp -4.5 5.5. I don't know how much juice the refrig is pulling. The refrig wiring connections appear to be clean.Until I correct the problem i can use block ice.
air-cooled Adler Barbour
I also have an Adler Barbour fridge system , with the air cooled plates. Recently, my motors burnt out, and I replaced them. Can anyone confirm the direction of the blades for the fans? Am I right that the fan inside the box blows air towards the plate, and the one outside blows air away, or do I have it wrong?
I also have an Adler Barbour fridge system , with the air cooled plates. Recently, my motors burnt out, and I replaced them. Can anyone confirm the direction of the blades for the fans? Am I right that the fan inside the box blows air towards the plate, and the one outside blows air away, or do I have it wrong?