Hurth Transmission Trouble

LAST WEEKEND WE ATTEMPTED TO GO SAILING. I MOTORED ABOUT TWO HRS WITH A LOW BUT HIGH PITCH SQUEAL WHICH I COULD NOT ISOLATE. RATHER THEN RETURN AND BE WISE, WE CONTINUED AND FROZE UP THE TRANS. WE WAITED TILL THE NEXT DAY. CHKD THE FLUID (NONE). ADDED NEW FLUID, ROTATED THE SHAFT, CROSSED OUR FINGERS AND IT STARTED RIGHT UP. THE SHIFTING WAS SMOOTH AND WE RAN IT IN GEAR FOR 30 MIN. AT THE DOCK. NO PROBLEMS. MY ENGINE GUY SAID IF IT DID SEIZE UP THEN IT SHOULD BE PULLED AND INSPECTED. I ASSUMED IF THERE IS NO VISIBLE RED FLUID THEN IT MUST BE FULL. I LEARNED THE HARD WAY THIS IS NOT THE CASE. I STILL DON'T KNOW WHY IT WAS EMPTY. ANY INFO WOULD BE APPRECIATED.

I can imagine the bearings being quite worn from running without lube. Did you find loose ATF oil under the engine? Seems like it had to go someshere...


Is the bottom plug still in? I admit that checking the oil level in the trans is my least favorite thing... hard to get at, and the danged AFT is near invisible on the dip stick.

My condolances,

Loren in PDX
1988 Universal M25XP

Huh...

Yeah, I would check it out - clean it out totally, then fill it, and run up the engine and watch it like a hawk. ATF does not 'disappear' on it's own...you need to find out what happened to it.

You should ALWAYS see nice, red ATF. I check it even when we get on anchor after motoring for more than 2-3 hours...

Let us know what happens, ok?

Good Luck -

//sse

Hi guys. There was never a trace of red anywhere under the engine so I concluded it had to be in the trans. I wasn't lazy, I just thought my logic was sound. I E-mailed HURTH yesterday and their tech E-mld me an hour later and adv me to pull it and probably do a rebuild. He went further to say that if it got hot enough to seize then I was on borrowed time and should have zero confidence in it. Thats good enough for me. My engine dude said if the front seal is leaking, the fluid could have leaked into the bell housing and stopped there. If the drain is clogged, there would be no visible evidence of a problem. All I can offer at this time is this. Hurth adv change fluid once a year. The first sign of trouble is slow shifting. The second is a noticable squeal. If you ignore steps 1,2 and 3. Execute option 4. Call tow boats US. because you just broke down. I will post the end result when this adventure is over. Thanks for the support. This is a great web site. Sean, do you remember me. I'm the the guy who had the emergency tiller that was the wrong diameter and had to have another made. I am the fourth owner and the thing was still in the factory sealed bag.

Speaking of seeing the ATF on the dipstick, let me pass along a trick that a friend showed me that seems to help visualize the level on the stick. After you pull the stick out quickly lay it down on a white paper towel and roll it sideways. The oil leaves enough of a stain that you can see what the level was, even though you can't really see the level on the stick itself.

I replace my ATF every fall, and I really HATE getting the level correct.

THANKS STEVE. GREAT IDEA!!

My tech pulled the trans. and one of the bearings just disintegrated. The thing has been rebuilt once in '95. I checked prices and will have a new one installed this week. It is being shipped from Florida and will cost 1030.00. After shipping and labor hrs. I expect the bill to be approx. 15-1600.00. My tech. picked it up wholesale w/o an exchange. I'll be glad to get back on the water. Of course, I will check the oil and TRANSMISSION fluid before I venture out.

Hurth Transmission Troubles II

Do these things come in batches? Went to post my story and question and found someone else has been having transmission troubles lately.

Here's my story about my transmission on a Universal M-15:

Last fall, as I always faithfully do, I filled up the transmission fluid to the top, per the owner's manual. I assume you do this to make sure all components are bathed in oil over the winter so you don't develop rust on internal parts.

After a record late start in spring preparation due to amazingly wet weather here in New England, some delayed interior woodwork and illness in the family, I finally got her in the river in Portland, CT.

Went down for engine startup and checkout Thursday night. Per owners manual instructions I drain the transmission fluid and refill to the dipstick line. Well, about 1/4" above the line but as an earlier poster mentioned it is a real pain to get the level right. I assumed I was close enough.

Engine starts up OK. I then checked out the transmission. While still attached to the mooring I powered back and forward. Went through my usual checkout including (after a warm-up) operation for 30-40 seconds at full throttle in forward and reverse. Absolutely no problem with the engine or transmission.

All set to take her down the river Saturday morning. Even though its drizzling this seems like the best weather window we've had all spring. Again engine starts up like a charm. Takes about half hour to get ready to go while I leave the engine at idle, transmission in neutral.

I go to cast off. Because of river current I have trouble taking loop off the cleat in the last line and realize I'm going to have to nudge her forward to take off the tension. Go back to the cockpit and put in forward. Nothing. The lever wants to spring back and even while I hold her forward no engagement. Try reverse and the lever won't come back.

I assume I have a clutch cable problem. Go below and push and pull on the lever on the transmission. It seems to move easily. However, nothing happens when I push her into foward or reverse. No clashing, no banging, no grinding, just no engagement. I check the oil level again. It's right there at the same level (I always use that paper towel trick.). No problem there. I thought it could be a loose lever where it clamps to the shifting shaft entering the engine but using a flashlight it looks like the lever is clamped on tight and moving with the lever.

Well there goes that weekend. Gave up and went home. Filled out a service request to the yard to check it out. Haven't heard back from them yet.

My question is, does this sound familiar to anyone and does anyone have any idea what this could be? I'm guessing it could be anywhere from something stupid I forgot ($100 yard bill) to, like the earlier posting $1,500 - $2,000+ for new or rebuild transmission.

Could my overfilling by even that small amount have caused the problem? Also, the manual says to use Mercon or Dextron II. When I bought the boat there was a half bottle of Dextron III with the boat so I assumed this is what the PO used so this is what I've consistantly used as long as I've owned the boat. Someone in the yard said that Dextron II was no longer made but that Dextron III was the compatible fluid now made. Is this correct or could this have contributed to the problem?

Boy, do I feel stupid. Must be a waterlogged brain from all this rain this spring and summer.

Turns out that when I was moving the arm on the transmission I was really putting it in forward and reverse. It's just at the position I was in and the engine at idle I just didn't sense any movement.

Problem turned out to be at the pedestal end of the cable. The screw which holds the outside metal end cap on the cable sleeve had come loose. When I moved the gearshift lever I was moving the whole cable instead of the inner rod.

Took working around the usual awkward access in the pedestal and sticking my head WAY down into the lazerette to loosen up some clamps to allow enough free play on the cable. But just a tightened screw later she works good as new.

Finally got her to her summer berth today, down the Connecticut River and out of Long Island sound to Noank. Had to do it singlehanded this year in one shot (usually an overnight stop at Essex and the Gris or the Black Seal for dinner). Cast off the mooring at 6:15 AM (woke up at 4 AM) and finally a good day in New England. Didn't even get bashed around by a power boat until about 8:30 AM but they got even with me in the usual massive rukus at the mouth of the Connecticut. Finally felt home when entering Fisher's Island Sound and seeing all the sails.

It really does strike you what a sailor's mecca Fishers Island Sound is. As I entered I looked behind and saw maybe a dozen sails. Ahead of me in the sound was literally hundreds of sails. Picked up my mooring, buttoned up, and then a ride back to the docks on Sixpenny with Bear (the retriever) standing watch.

Finally, the season has started.

I have been thinking of visiting Fisher's Island Sound this summer. Anything you would paticularly recommend visiting/avoiding?

Geoff,

As for what to visit here there is of course, Mystic. Many marinas up the river including mine, the Noank Village Boat Yard, to stay at, and Noank itself is Mystic without the shops and hype. Have lunch here at Carson's ("Ice cold ice") sitting on a stool at the counter and feel like a local almost immediately. Nice little grocery store and package store too.

Entering Fisher's from LI Sound you'll pass the dumplings. Check out the island owned by Mr. Kaman (of the Segway scooter fame) with its lighthouse, replica of Stonehenge, and a landing craft on the beach. Coast along the shore of Fisher's Island to view the trophy houses. I've landed on Fisher's Island a couple times and found the best views are from the water side.

If your timing is right you'll see the Mystic Whaler heading out or returning from her cruises. I love to watch her pass down the channel near my mooring.

There's the next town Stonington, which is worth a visit but even better is Watch Hill and Napatree Point. It's a tight long channel into the anchorage behind Napatree Point but worth it. Good holding ground and well protected from the waves. Go ashore and walk 50 feet over onto the surf side. Go to sleep in a quiet anchorage but hearing the soothing surf not far away.

Things to avoid? Rocks. I've never done the Maine Coast but from what I hear of it this is a good training ground. Big currents here. More lobster pots than I've seen anywhere else on the sound. At least they don't have toggles like some of the ones in Maine. Navigation is tricky, especially the entrance to the Mystic River. But all hazards are well marked and you're OK as long as you strictly follow the channel. Morgan Point Lighthouse is beautiful at the mouth of the Mystic River and it's usually on the house tour the town sponsor's every summer. I'm still waiting to see someone actually sitting on the white Adirondac chairs on the front lawn.

If you continue out of Fisher's Sound along the coast or out to block Island be sure to use Watch Hill Passage. There are other passages through the rocks between Fisher's and Watch Hill but these are best left for high slack tide and careful creeping through. I've managed to bang the keel once already trying to get through them.

Sounds great - like a bigger version of my stomping grounds, the Sheffield Islands in Rowayton, CT. Now, if it would just stop raining