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8 Hours with the Surveyor Today Issues E39

captainjay

Junior Member
So I spent a solid 8 hour day with the surveyor today. A good six of them on the boat. So someone either talk me in or out of this thing.

Things that I was pretty sure needed attention (now I know they do):

Major Cleaning, Buffing & Waxing.
Running and Standing Rigging.
12 Volt Electrical Panel (original toggle switches).
110 Electrical Panel (crazy square D home panel a few outlets and a shore charger as well as a dead or about to be dead 110 fridge)
there is a separate 12 Volt fridge unit that is only 6 years old.
Bimini needs re sewn and new zippers.
Mainsail cover needs a few patches and new snaps around the mast.
Cables on steering quadrant need replaced.
Bottom needs done. Haul clean and paint last bottom job 2004 prior owner. I have seen pictures and it looked good then.
Log on the shaft needs replaced.
Kitchen counter and sink and faucet and stove look like *#(^$

Things I thought would be a problem and are:

The mast step is done, it is severely corroded and basically unsafe
The crazy steel cross members under the forward and aft bulkheads are corroded as well, the aft one is much worse than the forward one the flange on the hull bottom were it bolts to the keel is toast
The forward one will clean up and survive a while longer

Things I didn't catch the first time out:

The water tanks under the floor are weeping so they aren't long for this world
Every through hull is suspect this is unfortunate as they aren't as old as the boat but have had no maintenance over the last four or five years and most won't close ( have to write them off)
The one that really makes me mad, The two forward bulkheads have serious damage, both inner chain plates that attach to the bulkheads have been leaking for a while and there is rot on both sides. There is evidence of a former repair on the port side and serious delamination under the settee were the aforementioned metal cross member bolts through.
The bulkhead repair will require removing both settee's and laminating a new bulkhead (1/2 teak plywood over the old then retrimming it all out with new bolts for the chain plates)
I won't go into the various lights and switches and other little everyday BS that is wrong with the boat.

The good stuff:

A six year old motor that is in good shape.
A boat that sails well.
Serviceable main sail, and jib as well as a nearly new spinnaker.
The boat had the shaft, prop and cutlass bearing replaced in 2002.
It also had and additional 20 or so grand spent on it between 2001 and 2002 by the owner before last. I have gone through the receipts and with the exception of the motor and refrigeration most of that good will has been used up.

So here is were I am with the boat and the budget:

The boat is $18000.
It will likely cost $3000 to $4000 to do the rig.(including the new step).
It will cost me $3000 to do the bottom.
It will cost me $2000 to do the running rigging. (Lines blocks, Traveler)
It will cost me $1000 in materials and a lot of my time to do the repairs to the bulkheads and reconfigure the salon berths the right way, and refinish the interior.
It will cost me $1000 in material and a lot of my time to fix the electrical panels.
It will cost me $300 to replace the head and straighten out the plumbing there.
Steering quad will cost $500 in materials and my time.
Canvas repair $500
Shaft log $500 including labor to replace.
Through hulls $500 and my time.
Materials for counter, sink and faucets $500
New lights fans etc $500
Stove $1500
Water Tanks, steel cross members and floor repair? Hopefully Guy will chime in here)
Does the fiberglass liner under the floor provide any serious structure or can this be reconfigured?

Just because someone will ask. My skills include, fiberglass and gell coat repairs as well as lots of west system work.
I used to be a general contractor and finish carpenter in a former life. So the wood work doesn't scare me. I also have wired whole house and I have don't some pretty extensive wiring work on boats as well. I also work in the charter business and have good contacts for the things I can't handle.

So is the boat worth it the money and the time or should I move on? My guess is that I will end up north of $30000 and closer to $40000 with the repairs and that is before we get into wish lists and might as wells. Like solar panels and stereos and plotter oh my. :egrin:
Jay

PS here is a link to the pictures for anyone that didn't see them in the other thread.
 
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Sven

Seglare
Jay,

Realize my bias, it is strong.

Looking at the pictures again, I wonder if the boat has been submerged ? The dark splotchy wood doesn't look at all like the teak in Senta II. Maybe they are jpeg artifacts ?

I also think you are underpricing the cost of the standing and running rigging plus the mast step. We are allocating $15-16K to strip the mast, replace the boom and replace the standing rigging for off-shore use. That includes a trysail track, adding a cutter stay, putting in a solid vang, preventers etc.. Maybe you will be doing much of the work yourself ?

Even so, If you could end up with a solid basic E39 after purchase price plus $30K I think you would have something beautiful and beautifully functional.

Did the deck core check out ok ? I have found at least one suspect spot on Senta II that the surveyor didn't find despite hands-and-knees tapping all over.

Our bilge is extremely dry, makes me wonder how you got the corrosion ?

Lastly, listen to Guy and Martin. Both of them have had and "restored" E39s and have a proper appreciation of the intrinsic perfection of the design, even if it needs work.



-Sven
 

rwthomas1

Sustaining Partner
A boat is not ever a simple financial decision. If you have the time, talent and inclination to make this boat the "right" boat for you, then why not? If you enjoy taking on this sort of project and are honest and realistic with yourself about the costs, go for it. I tend to think you will spend $50K on it. But that will leave you with a very nice E39 for $70K that should serve you well for 15-20years or so. Weigh all the pros and cons, take a deep breath and jump in. Or not. RT
 

Martin King

Sustaining Member
Blogs Author
Yep, she's a major project. I think the worst part will be those leaking
water tanks. If she has the extra tank forward near the mast and
it's leaking on the back side of the tank, you are screwed. The only
way to deal with it is to open up the fiberglass pan to get to them. This
is major surgery and will entail glassing in new floor timbers and rebuilding
the cabin sole. The black spots on the forward bulkheads are classic
symptoms of chainplate leaks which of course leads to rot in the bulkhead.
You can sister on new wood, or do what some have done, just replace
the whole shebang. Either way, you will be tearing up cabinetry. The
mast estimate seems low to me. When I rebuilt mine, both sets of
spreaders had to be replaced as the ends were just too far gone. You
didn't mention any soft spots in the deck, or blisters on the hull. With
evidence of deck leaks, I would expect to be doing some recoring in
the deck. If you are doing that from underneath, you will have the
opportunity to do a nice new headliner because the original is coming
down. I won't even get into all the other stuff you mentioned.
Given the condition, I would say the asking price is too high. Unless you
can buy her for a lot less, and are comfortable with a total re-do, I would
pass.
 

u079721

Contributing Partner
I get exhausted just reading that list of things that need doing on this boat. I would just not have the energy to do all that.

But in addition, I would pass because I think it will take you years to get it all done - years you could be sailing if you bought a different boat.
 

HughHarv

Hugh
Ericson 39

Sounds like you've got the skill and the inclination but I think she's way too high priced. For what it's worth, I bought my E-39 for a whole lot less.....for what I called salvage value, i.e. the market value of the lead keel, the new diesel and the old mast & boat hardware, minus the price of scrapping the glass hull. I figured I'd only be out some sweat if I gave up and scrapped her.

I made a list of the problems, including the rudder and deck core issues, and included what it would cost to get her back in shape (yard costs were estimated at $60k, mostly labor). I'd also check the rudder for water. I sent my list and photos to the owner and named my price. The way the owner jumped at the opportunity, I probably left money on the table.

The deck had many leaks, rotten core near all the chainplates, the round stanchion bases at both gates, and where the old deck tracks were above the galley, nav station and bow. A lot of work, messy, but no fairing the deck when the fix is from the inside.

The foreward steel ring frame and mast step were very rusty. I cut and removed that frame (which was never connected to the port bulkhead, holes never bored in panel) and the steel stopped short of the starboard bulkhead. I may build a floor later, but it won't be metal. People have built he aft steel frame can be built out of G-10 in separate pieces and assembled below the floor.

I considered a new mast-step of aluminum I-beam but wanted to be rid of metal altogether so I ended up building a new mast-step from a composite of oak and glass layers encased in fiberglass. Had to cut a bigger opening in the floor to get in there with a chisel and hammer to cut the tabbing. I chiseld half the tabbing then pried the step out so this was much faster and neater than grinding.

The prices for marina repairs and most chandlery items are way out of my league so I learned a lot about epoxy & fiberglass and buying surplus for much, much less. I'll likely have to learn about rigging, if it's not rocket sci, I'll make my own repairs and save that cost too.

Good luck.
 

Guy Stevens

Moderator
Moderator
So here is were I am with the boat and the budget:

1> The boat is $18000.
2> It will likely cost $3000 to $4000 to do the rig.(including the new step).
3> It will cost me $3000 to do the bottom.
4> It will cost me $2000 to do the running rigging. (Lines blocks, Traveler)
5> It will cost me $1000 in materials and a lot of my time to do the repairs to the bulkheads and reconfigure the salon berths the right way, and refinish the interior.
6> It will cost me $1000 in material and a lot of my time to fix the electrical panels.
7> It will cost me $300 to replace the head and straighten out the plumbing there.
8> Steering quad will cost $500 in materials and my time.
9> Canvas repair $500
10> Shaft log $500 including labor to replace.
11> Through hulls $500 and my time.
12> Materials for counter, sink and faucets $500
13> New lights fans etc $500
14> Stove $1500
15> Water Tanks, steel cross members and floor repair? Hopefully Guy will chime in here)
16> Does the fiberglass liner under the floor provide any serious structure or can this be reconfigured?

I would respond as follows:
1> Too High a final price, the boat needs a lot of work, and there is some that you don't know about.

2> This number is way low, even for me to do the rig on this boat at my costs this number would not cover the wholesale cost of the parts that you are going to need, let alone crane in and out, laydays for the mast etc.

3> If you have it done this is possible. If you do it yourself it should be less than $1000.00.

4> Again way low. The traveler project alone is $1000.00 at standard product pricing. The running rigging will cost more than you have estimated if you do it correctly and not a poor job of it.

5> I would not repair the bulkheads, I would remove them and make new ones. This is a large job, which will entail removing the setees on both sides of the main cabin. This is a big job. It will take a lot of man hours to do, but will be a lot better than you are likely to get with any repair. The cost of putting things right is going to exceed your estimate by probably 3x the amount you have estimated.

6> The boat needs to be rewired all of them do by the time they get to this age. The panel is going to be expensive figure at a minimum 15 - 20 per breaker at least 30 breakers, you can see you are already at $600.00. The wire is old in the boat not tinned, suffering from corrosion and other issues. So that is at least another $1000 in wire alone, let alone terminals, terminal blocks, wire ties etc.

7> Again I think that your estimate of materials is low on for the replacement of the head. The hose, a new head, valves etc. You are easily going to exceed the $300.00 you have listed. Maybe you might get by for closer to $700.00

8> Probably about right, maybe less if you shop around and are patient.

9> If the thread has had it, the canvas is not far behind on water repellent ability, and unless you are good with a sewing machine it is going to cost more to have someone do this that you think.

10> If you do the work on the log at the time of the haulout to do the bottom it should not cost $500.00. However it may add some lays days to the project.

11> Again to do this job right you are low on the price of materials. There are more than 5 thru hulls as this boat came from the factory, each of these and the associated valves are going to cost more than $100.00 each, even at wholesale prices. I would guess this to be at least double what you have estimated if you do the work.

12> Yeah they are ugly, but that is cosmetic..... The sinks are close to impossible to find, and are very expensive when you do find them. Replacing the sinks with any that are less deep makes washing dishes on the boat very hard. The counters can be redone in new Formica and plywood, the faucets can be had at any good hardware that sells quality faucets. I think the ones that I like to use are about $150.00 at Home Depot.

13> If you shop judiciously and don't have to have it today this will probably work.

14> The stove looked functional. If it works why get a new one? If it does not work parts for it are available from Force 10. Fix it much cheaper.

15> In order to replace the water tanks you have to cut out the sole of the boat. This is an involved and time consuming project. At the same time since you are cutting out the floor you should go ahead and replace the Cross members and the mast step. I would probably fabricate all of these out of the G-10. Probably close to 1/2 a sheet needed. About $600.00 for the step and the cross members in g-10 alone. Epoxy, a gallon or so should do it, some bidirectional glass, and a whole lot of time. The tanks themselves may be salvageable, or may need to be replaced. Figure about $1500 per tank to have new one fabricated. (SS is going up every day lately), you might find someone to do them a little cheaper, but that is a fair price. So without counting the months worth of work that this is, you would be out lets say at least $5000.00 to get everything done if you did the work. A lot more if someone else does it of course.

16> Yes some, it could be reconfigured, if the structural nature of the furniture were taken into account, but I am not sure that I understand the question.

You could buy this boat, and fix it to your tastes and abilities. The project would probably end up costing you close to $100,000 by the time that you were finished even if you did get the boat for $18K. Remember that there are things that you don't know about yet that are going to have to be fixed along the way. Cost overruns on a project like this are going to be monumental and you can't account for all of them at this stage.

Now when you finished up, you would have your dream boat, paid for in small installments and it would be worth more that $100K, but only to you. On the market it would be worth maybe $60,000; but you would have to have it for sale for a long time to get that much for it. Likely you could sell it quick if it were in good shape after you worked on it for $45-$50.

So does it make financial sense, not a lick. Does it make emotional sense? That is up to you to decide. Does it make sense to spend all that time working on the boat. (I would guess that you have at least 2 years if not longer of work from the above list). Will you carry through on that much work, or get 6 months into it and decide that even getting blind drunk and arrested every weekend seems to be a more fun way of spending your time? Only you can know the answer to that. If you buy this boat you are signing up for a lot of work. If you LOVE the work than that is good, if you are doing the work to get a boat that you want to sail, then it generally does not work out, most of the projects purchased at a real steal end up moldering in the back of boat yards everywhere. Are there exceptions... Oh yes, but they are few and far between. Maybe you are one of those exceptions, only you can tell.

How many e-39's have you looked at? If the nicer ones don't fit into your budget, then fixing this one is not going to fit into it either.

Just my

$.02

Guy
 

delwarne

Member II
My .02

And do you intend to do this in the V.I.? My experience comes from time spent at Boat yards on St. Thomas. Parts used to be hard to come by and expensive to ship in.
I'm just sayin ...
 

captainjay

Junior Member
Well after a good nights sleep and thoughts of what a task the boat would be. I am leaning toward not doing it. I will have the printed survey tomorrow with better pictures. I do like the work, that said I do it every day for a living so I don't know how long it would continue to be fun. When I first looked at this boat I thought it would be possible to do some minor repairs to the bulkheads, replace the questionable rigging, tighten up a few odds and ends and sail the boat, knowing that I would have other projects down the road. The mast step and other structural issues weren't on my radar. I also knew that I would have to address the electrical issues as well. In all likely hood someone could do some patching up and live on the boat here and sail once in while but I am just not wired that way. If I can't make the boat right I won't be happy.
Frankly as one poster stated living here does complicate things as well, as yard work and lay days are very expensive here. I do have good sources for parts being in the industry but freight adds to the cost of parts as well.
I do appreciate all of the frank and honest responses.
Jay

PS as for the bottom. I haven't had the boat hauled so I don't know yet. I am trying to decide at this point if there is any chance that I will go through with this. The hual and power wash will be another $400 on top of the cost of the survey which is on me either way. The last bottom job was in 2004 when it last sold.
 
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stillwater

Member II
Some recent (mostly wholoesale) costs of repair

I purchased "Stillwater" E39 #36 for $5000 last May 2008. Loading, Shipping from Mass. to WA and then unload $13,000. Original one owner boat. Lots of miles. Interior was good and original. Only the angled bulkhead in head was funky from leaking baby stay fitting. Interior not hacked up in any way. Deck was good and new headliner installed. Cored hull needed a repair that cost $900. Boat has good Volvo diesel w/800 hrs and a had a new Max 3 blade prop. New Main and #2 headsail. Good #1, #3, storm, storm trysail, spinniker. Custom Hood spar was good condition with SS mast step. 14 Barient winches with #30s mounted inboard, good dodger, and sailcover. New Bass electric panels were installed at professional level. Few electronics. (Speedo only worked) Replaced with good used gear. $550 including used Raytheon 4000st. Replaced traveler with good used Harken $200. Misc mainsheet blocks new Harken rollers $400 wholesale. New mainsheet $125. WinchMate Self tailer conversions on Barient 30's $1100.

Plumbing was iffy, now replaced with Whale. Tanks were OK. Cost with new fixtures about $400. (Parts only) Forward beam bad. Replaced. Cost about $100. Plus a few scars on my knuckles. Aft beam good but needed refastening. Bad CNG stove. New propane system and stove (used) about $500. Replaced all rod rigging and 8 turn buckles with 3/8 316 wire. $1600 wholesale. New Furlex 300. $2800 Wholesale. Jib SLeeve. $300. 6 Halyards were good. To replace halyards and sheeves would be $2000+. New batteries. 4 6 volts $500 1 start $100. Used Furuno Radar $700. New Refer hardware $1000. Wholesale.

Several hundred hours at my normal rate of $45 hour ???

Boat needs paint hull and topsides.., but my son paints boats! Costs still be $5000 + or -

I've got about $30,000 +or - so far in a boat that was used up but good condition.

Boat was valued in the Northwest at $30,000 last Sept by surveyor and insured for that. 39's do not command a high price in the open market.

But, I don't feel that I could do better than what I have for many times that in another boat. I also like Wauquiez 38 Ted Hood Mark II $80 to 125K, and Swan 43 60 (Beater) to 150K.

Pays your Money - Takes your Chances!

I think you could do better than the boat you are looking at!

Regards,
Dal
 

ted_reshetiloff

Contributing Partner
And the most valuable piece of advice here, IMHO, from Guy:

"Now when you finished up, you would have your dream boat, paid for in small installments and it would be worth more that $100K, but only to you. On the market it would be worth maybe $60,000; but you would have to have it for sale for a long time to get that much for it. Likely you could sell it quick if it were in good shape after you worked on it for $45-$50"


A good cruising boat in this size range will cost at least 80k. I say good because in order to be good it should only need some slight tweaking to be suited to your personal tastes. No major repairs needed and decent systems all around. You will spend at least 80k getting there. The choice is do you do it over several years and risk huge cost overruns and a stressful project that likely ends without a happy conculsion? Or buy a smaller boat in better shape. Or spend more up front.

I'm currently looking at a new boat for my family and wrestling with the proposition of investing $30k imediately on day one on top of the purchase price to get the boat up to a condition similar to my current Ericson. Assuming I can get the boat at a price that once the initial investment is factored in does not exceed fair value it makes sense. I am very cautious though seeing many folks get that look in their eye and buying into a project boat. I agree with Gusy price estimates and having quoted standing and running rigging for similar boats I would say his numbers are generous in the states. USVI probably need to add another 20% on materials alone.

In short my advice on this boat would be RUN RUN RUN. You have already spent too much on a survey probably.
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
What that money might buy...

Perhaps not a totally fair comparison financially, but it seems worth mentioning that the Ericson 39B for sale right now (and mentioned a while back on this site in the For Sale forum) appears to be... really... purdy much... Turn Key.
We gave it a good look today while visiting the Emerald City. A few years down the road the deck and hull may want some refinishing due to thinning get coat, is all.
For its age, it shows very well.

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1977/Ericson-39b-2070700/Seattle/WA/United-States
Asking is $79K, and I honestly have no idea how firm that price is. New diesel, though, and that's really nice!

Anyhow, sometimes it's good to see just how much the total money might buy that is mentioned in the above posts on fixing up the E-39 that this thread started with.

FWIW, we decided that we really should stick with our 34 footer for now. If any model could lure us away it might be a deal on a clean 38-200 or a 380 model.

Other than the lack of a shower stall and a lotta storage, our present boat is an excellent performance cruiser... and like many Ericson products is a type of sail boat no longer being built. (At least not for under a quarter million.)

Cheers,
Loren
:egrin:

http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?t=6299&referrerid=28
Here is the thread on this site.
 
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captainjay

Junior Member
Ding Dong the deal is dead

Well, long story shore we backed out of the deal. I got the survey yesterday evening and went through it although I had already made up my mind for the most part. I tried to talk myself past it a couple of times and just couldn't. I live in one of the best cruising grounds on the planet and need to go sailing. This boat is a two or three year project unless I quit my real job and I can't afford that. So we are shopping again. It ended up costing me about $800 between the survey and the cost to go over to St John twice to see it. I do want to thank everyone for their input even if it wasn't what I wanted to hear. I do like the boat and haven't ruled out looking for another one. I will post the survey when I have a chance for anyone interested in a good read. Here is a direct quote from the sell if you want a good laugh.
"I estimated I would spend about 4 maybe 5 K to do a major restoration. Not 30."

Jay
 

tenders

Innocent Bystander
I would say spending $1k to prevent spending $30+k and several years of unanticipated labor was a great investment. Spending it again on a potential boat you start out with more conviction on, and end up with a high level of confidence after you buy it, will be an even better investment.

Once you have an expert's opinion in writing, your negotiating power will probably also save more than the cost of two surveys.
 

ted_reshetiloff

Contributing Partner
FWIW you should get in touch with Todd Duff at BVI Yacht Sales. He is one of the only yacht brokers I have ever met who actually seemed to really know something about boats. His son is a very good friend of mine. He can help you with the very analysis you have just done and he buys boats himself very frequently. He's in the process of buying a nice steel schooner on the east coast that will be a big project to finish but he's been down this road many times and is a genuinely nice guy to talk to. He's in your neighborhood too. Tell him Ted Reshetiloff sent you if get in touch.

info@bviyachtsales.com
 

darin32002

under the black flag
I would like to see it.

Well, long story shore we backed out of the deal. I got the survey yesterday evening and went through it although I had already made up my mind for the most part. I tried to talk myself past it a couple of times and just couldn't. I live in one of the best cruising grounds on the planet and need to go sailing. This boat is a two or three year project unless I quit my real job and I can't afford that. So we are shopping again. It ended up costing me about $800 between the survey and the cost to go over to St John twice to see it. I do want to thank everyone for their input even if it wasn't what I wanted to hear. I do like the boat and haven't ruled out looking for another one. I will post the survey when I have a chance for anyone interested in a good read. Here is a direct quote from the sell if you want a good laugh.
"I estimated I would spend about 4 maybe 5 K to do a major restoration. Not 30."

Jay

Hey CaptainJay
I live over here on St. Croix and got not a thing to do for the next 2 to 4yr's. Can I see the survey? I'm Game:rolleyes:
Thanks
Darin
 

captainjay

Junior Member
Darin,
Send me a PM with your email and I will shoot you a copy of the survey if you want. I never had the boat hauled as we found enough inside to back out of the deal.
Jay
 

Sean Engle

Your Friendly Administrator
Administrator
Founder
Hey Jay -

Glad to hear that you arrived at a good decision on the boat - but sorry that you're not purchasing an Ericson at this point. Please do keep the Ericson line in mind when looking at other boats. As you can see - the line is well made, and the input from other owners substantial.

See if you find a nice E41 down there... :egrin:

Best of luck to you!

//sse
 
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