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New Genoa sizing 38-200

Tsicora

Member I
I presently, delaminated my 155 genoa and have been in a quandary about what size the new genoa should be.

Sailing for light are conditions vs. the heavy air and furling the genny. Both my main and genoa are North 3DL sails. I very much like the performance of these sails, but at the same time furling the 155 and tacking is a lot of work when short handed. With the 155 I need to use the outer track to get proper sail shape and have equipped the boat with an adjustable cart system.

I pulled out my old 135 in 17 knots of apparent breeze with the main reefed and was doing consistently over 7 knots. Very happy with the results…. However, I’m not sure about making the investment of the 155 and all the problems that go with it.

Any help from other sailors using the 155 on a 38 or any other pieces of info to help the decision making process. Oh, and North is running a great sale on sails right now and I need to make a decision soon.

Thanks Tom
 

Tsicora

Member I
Simple put... why go with a 155 genoa? I think that is the basic question I'm trying to get my hands around. We have light to heavy breeze air with out much waves.
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
What per cent is best

Perhaps it's time to talk to your handicapper about where the "break point" is for a smaller head sail. Whether a 128 or a 142 %, you might find that a new composite genny that gives you a best PHRF number for a given % overlap is the best answer.
Otherwise, consider going with an arbitrary in-between size, like the ever-popular "135."
During an earlier discussion on the size of headsails, there was some good commentary that with an easily-driven hull like yours and others in the later-design Ericson family, the 135 (give or take) % might be best at all wind pressures except under, say, 8 kts.

I notice this in my model, and we have been happy with a 135 for a decade.
FWIW: The more overlap, the more hassle it can be to trim...
:rolleyes:

Random thoughts generated. Deposit .02 please. (Actual wisdom costs more...)

:)

Loren
 

rwthomas1

Sustaining Partner
When I bought my E38 it had a Doyle 150 Genoa. It was simply too much for my sailing area, Narragansett Bay, where the wind is normally 12-20kts. I moved down to a 130% and haven't looked back. The 130 works well from 8 to 17kts. Any less and you need the A-sail and any more requires reefing the main. The 130 was made by Haarstick and has a fairly deep draft. I can take most of this out with halyard tension and backstay if I need too but I find the drive provided is just great for anything but pointing as high as possible. There is also foam in the luff to help with the shape when reefed. Everything is a compromise but for my money the 130 is the best all around sail. RT
 

Lawdog

Member III
I also have a 135, made byMorelli in Ventura, Ca. and for 90% of the time love it. I am in Maine where it is usually blowing similar to RI, but on those days when I race against the others in cruising class, I need to have a 150 to make my rating, so Rob, if you still have that old 150 lying around, let me know. Here is Morelli's site.
Thanks http://www.morsail.com/
Neal
 
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treilley

Sustaining Partner
Neal, your rating should reflect that you use a 135 instead of a 150. I believe you get a +3 adjustment for that in PHRFNE.
 

Lawdog

Member III
I checked my PHRFNE rating sheet, and there is no LP adjustment on mine, and, in fact, they told me that my boat is rated for up to a 155%, at my base rating, and although the site shows a +3 for 135% or less, I have not been given it. I do have a recreational adjustment, but the LP shouldn't be in that adjustment, but who knows. As you know when you passed me during the MS, with my fixed prop and 135%, even with the adjustments, there is no race to speak of. Maybe next year if I can get as good start as I got this year, we can make a race out of it.

Neal
 

u079721

Contributing Partner
130 here

Well we never raced, so the concern about not having a 150 or 155 for meeting a rating never came up. But for Great Lakes sailing we went with a UK Pentex 130 genny and were quite pleased. My impression is that there were more times that we were reefing the 150 then that the 130 was underpowered.
 

Tsicora

Member I
I'm not itching to spend money but the 135 I have is stretched to the top of the mast and is not furling properly and doesn’t have proper shape. I think can have it remade so it still works. I plan on purchasing another and I do some club racing and the 155 I had has won handily when the winds are below 15 knots with a single reef in the main.

It sounds like everyone loves there 135 for the E-38. 145 to 150 maybe… There is about 9 inches for every 5% removed from the sail on the foot. I don’t want to double up on inventor but once I put one up for the season I’m not prone to take it down. The North 3DL’s I can turn into a blade so they can act as a little bit smaller sail so I would like to purchase another and try to find a balance between the two (135 and 155)…. The admiral of the vessel has a hard time taking in the sheet with the larger sail... a lot of line to pull around the foredeck. :oops:(
 

Lawdog

Member III
I originally purchased my 135% for cruising, and had it cut high for visibility, and aside from racing, find it to be a perfect sail and easily manageable.

Here's a shot from this summer in some light stuff.

Neal
1983 E38
 

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Bob Robertson

Member III
Hi Tom,

We also have a 38-200. We replaced the sails in 2003. We moved up to a 150 from a 135.

We're completely satisfied. We get more speed at lower wind speeds which is not uncommon on Lake Superior during the middle and late summer. When the wind is up we reef, not a big deal.

You mentioned that you could only achieve proper trim using the outside track. We haven't seen that. I wonder if it could have to do with the age of the sail you're planning to replace?

Enjoy,
Bob
 

Tsicora

Member I
Here is the current 155 on the boat... The inner track is about 1.5 short when the furling is fully extended. The 3DL doesn't stretch much at all.
 

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Tsicora

Member I
You mentioned that you could only achieve proper trim using the outside track. We haven't seen that. I wonder if it could have to do with the age of the sail you're planning to replace?

The age of the sail in this picture is about 4 years old... This pic is 3 years old. I haven't notice a lot of change in performance up until the sail delaminated. Switching the main out last year changed things drastically. I hope the pic helps. The genny does look a little over sized.
 

Bob Robertson

Member III
Hi Tom,

Interesting, a foot and a half short.

I would seriously doubt that the difference between a 150 and a 155 could account for that.

Moving from the inner track to the outer track is our first change as the wind is building followed by reefing the Genoa.
I guess if my 150 could only use the outer tracks I wouldn't mind. I think I would gain more speed using the 150 on the outer track, given the same conditions, over the 135 on the inner track.

We've always had North Sails. I wonder if it's possible they accounted for the inner track?

What about having someone from a sail loft out to measure for your new sail?

Bob
 

Tsicora

Member I
Bob,
Where are you at in the inner track? My current 155 may be built a little larger than spected. The picture I sent shows where the sail is on the outer track.

This year I installed a Garhauer adjustable cart system (great idea). Letting the track find its own sweet spot close hauled still brings it farther back than the inner track.

Thanks Tom
 

e38 owner

Member III
E 38 155

For us it all about how we use the boat, I have 2 155's that we use use for racing, When not racing we always use a dacron 135. For us the Dacron 135 is great. I have a low clue so it points as well or better than the 155. Once the wind is above 9 true the differnce in speed is slight compared to the 155. Once the true wind is 12 or greater the 135 is most likely faster upwind. The ease in handling is well worth it. We sail on a mountain lake. Most of the time the wind is light but like most mountain lakes that can change quicky 0 one minute 30 the next . I never have to worry that I'm going to get caught with too much sail with 135.

My 155's also have low clues I had to add about a foot of track to get the car in the right place. In under about 2-3 true we use the outbaord track with the 155. After that we move to the inboard track. I most likely have photos of the car position if you would like
 

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Lawdog

Member III
Do you guys with the 150's and 155's have adjustable backstays, and if so, what kind and how effective have you found them on the 38? My 1983 38 came through without one and I have been contemplating purchasing one and installing it over the winter, but some I have looked at are 1/2 the cost of a replacement 150 or 155, so choices, choices?? I had one on my 29T and found it extremely effective in allowing me to head higher and in stronger winds, but that rig is substantially different from the 38. Comments welcome.
 

Bob Robertson

Member III
Hi Tom,

I'll have to check on the inner track. We have most everything off the boat including the sails and are about to haul it for the season.

We generally don't begin reefing until the wind speed is above 12 knots. Our first adjustment is to put twist in the main followed by reefing the main, then reefing the Genoa based on how much the boat is heeling.

We don't have an adjustable backstay. I've never sailed with one before, but I'm interested on how much of a difference it could make and how much the various options cost.

Thanks,
Bob
 

rwthomas1

Sustaining Partner
FWIW, I have never sailed my E38 without the backstay adjuster. I will say this, it makes changing the shape of the sail MUCH easier! In light wind the backstay can be eased way off to sag the headstay and help the main and headsail shape out more full. Same with downwind. Upwind cranking the backstay up will take the sag out of the headstay and bend the mast which flattens both sails. Between this and messing with halyard tension, outhaul, etc. flattening the sails allows me to keep the boat more upright when the wind pipes up. Carrying more sail and keeping her upright usually means more speed than reefing for me. I have a Navtec unit that came with the boat. It doesn't look cheap..... RT
 

Lawdog

Member III
Hi Tom on Windcatcher:
you said you didnt see much improvement in your boat's performance until you changed the mainsail. Can you explain in more detail what happened after the change, the age of the older one, and who made the new one. My main is a Pineapple, but at 9.5 oz, very heavy, so I am also thinking of upgrading there as well.
Thanks
Neal Weinstein
Enterprise
Casco Bay, Maine.
I have attached a picture with double reefed main and reefed 135 in 40+ kts from last year
 

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