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Thread: E 38 Spin sheet leads

  1. #1
    Contributing Partner Ericsean's Avatar
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    E 38 Spin sheet leads

    I have an E-38, & while racing smaller boats, while reaching with the spin I don't seem to be able to walk away from them.

    Using a general purpose tri radial, 3/4 oz, & I know I need a 1.5 starcut, but I was wondering where you have your spin sheets led to.

    I am thinking of trying to install two standup blocks as far back as possible to be able to flatten the foot for reaching

    What do you think/ recommend.
    Kevin Padden
    1980 E 38 Rettsie, Hull #3

  2. #2
    Senior Moderator Loren Beach's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    Here is short little primer on trim that I found at the UKSails site.
    http://www.ukhalsey.com/LearningCenter/poleHeight.asp

    It is close to the advice that I received from the loft manager at the old Ulmer Sails loft in Seattle in the late 70's...
    Stef used to caution me to let the chute fill and rise to the level that it was cut for -- i.e. to realize the designed-in shape. I found that many of my sailing buddies were determined to "choke it down" as the wind increased.

    Ignoring their well-meaning advice let us keep the shape natural and the break as even as possible. I found that where to place the block for the sheet was more complicated than just to move it "all the way aft." We seemed to have less round-ups and when we did the recovery back onto course seemed less dramatic, as well.

    For instance, on our prior two fractional rig boats, this mean't that the sheet might be turned just in front of the primary winch, and thus got treated to a fair lead to the winch base. On our present boat, with the "all purpose tri radial" that it came with, the sheeting is usually five feet or so forward from the end of the toe rail. This will be different for your boat, but the concept seems sound, IMO.

    Happy reaches,

    Loren
    1988 Olson 34 #8
    Sail # 28400
    Betamarine 25 (new 2018)
    Fresh Air
    Portland, OR USA

  3. #3
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    Spin sheets

    The real question is where was the sail designed to be sheeted..Just like with genoas, sail designers have a location for the sheet lead in mind when they design a sail-although typically kites are designed for an aft lead. Sometimes this is not good-with boats that are very narrow at the stern (includes the 38's), this may narrow the foot length and make the sail deeper than it should be. For the 38's many people are using the aft end of the outboard track-but again this depends on the sail design-Personally I would go with a padeye a couple of feet frward from the stern.

    One of the worst things you can do is have the lead too far forward in heavy air (the "choking" Loren refers to)-this is like having the genny lead too far forward, which causes a tight leech, prevents air from leaving the leech cleanly-causing excessive heeling, weather helm, etc. SLOW....
    Better too far aft than too far fwd.

    The time to go forward is in lighter air with bumpy water(same as with a genoa)..you need a bit more "punch" to the sail, so go forward with the lead, hear until the water flattens or the breeze builds, but never forward of the max beam (afterguy location), and watch out for closing the leech down-you still need to see air exiting the leech.

    BTW- 1.5 Starcut? Really? If you really want a reaching kite try a 90% sized A-sail made from Airex 700 or 900.

    Right?

    Cheers,
    S

  4. #4

    More on Sheet leads

    We have also had trouble reaching with our chute. We can't carry it quite as close as we would like with any speed. Attached is a photo from a couple of weeks ago. It is with our older chute that is a little blown out but good for new crew. We have a newer one but save it for after the crew is fully seasoned. The blocks are placed on the outbaord genoa track just forward of the stern rail about a foot behind the primary winches. Do you have any thoughts
    Thx
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by e38 owner; 07-07-2008 at 03:53 PM.

  5. #5
    Senior Moderator Loren Beach's Avatar
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    Red face Winch question

    At the risk of slightly taking this thread off in another direction...
    We looked at a really nice '89 E-38/200, at a brokerage on Saturday.

    Kathy noticed right away that the mainsheet was very hard to get at considering how easy our bridgedeck traveler is, and, upon reflection, I got to wondering where one sheets the spinnaker sheet and guy.

    FWIW, this boat has Lewmar 52ST primaries, but there is no provision on the cockpit sides for secondaries.

    Do you E-38 owners always take in the genny completely, remove those sheets, and then wind on the spinnaker sheets and do your hoist?

    I realized that some of the friction of the multipart mid-boom main sheet system can be dealt with by changing out all the hard-axle blocks for roller bearing models, but running a cockpit without secondary winches would be *quite* a change for us (when flying a chute).


    Comments??

    Thanks,
    Loren
    Last edited by Loren Beach; 07-07-2008 at 06:32 PM.
    1988 Olson 34 #8
    Sail # 28400
    Betamarine 25 (new 2018)
    Fresh Air
    Portland, OR USA

  6. #6

    Secondary

    We have a set of secondary winches in front of the primaries.
    I also rigged a double end main sheet and I like it . One end goes to the winch as in the standard layout. The other end has a rachet block and cam cleat on the traveler. In light air and down wind we use the cam cleat.

  7. #7
    Senior Moderator Loren Beach's Avatar
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    Question

    It is not obvious to me just where secondaries would go, given that the top of the combing narrows up considerably fore and aft of the primary winch.

    Loren
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    1988 Olson 34 #8
    Sail # 28400
    Betamarine 25 (new 2018)
    Fresh Air
    Portland, OR USA

  8. #8
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    I have secondary winches, Barient 27's, "from the factory" on my '87 38-200, pictured below:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by JohnK; 07-07-2008 at 05:33 PM.
    John Kreinest | '87 E38 #238 "Sea Fever" | Dutch Harbor, RI

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    38 stuff

    Secondaries were pretty common as the photo shows-I prefer to use cabin top winches for the spinn sheets and cockpit winches for the guys.

    As to the photo, which boat is yours? I can tell from this pic. Either way, if the sail is full sized, the lead is definitely too far forward for tight reaching if you are using the aft end of the outboard track-this will simply shut down the leech-robbing speed and causing too much heel and helm. That location is probably OK for running, maybe better than all the way aft, but not for reaching.


    But-that pic was not too bad..

    Cheers,
    S

  10. #10
    Principal Partner u079721's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnK View Post
    I have secondary winches, Barient 27's, "from the factory" on my '87 38-200, pictured below:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_2782 (Medium).JPG 
Views:	121 
Size:	50.3 KB 
ID:	4165

    I would like to have had secondaries on our E38-200, but I'm not sure I like the factory location of the winches on your boat. Sure looks like a trip hazard whenever you would try to go forward. If that is the only place they would fit I would just make do using the primaries as we always did.
    Steve Christensen
    Twin Cities, MN
    Former Owner of Rag Doll
    1989 Ericson 38-200
    Hull Number: ERY38318C989
    Universal M40

  11. #11
    Principal Partner Chris Miller's Avatar
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    we use coach-top winches if needed- another option is getting ratchet blocks.

    assuming the boat in the photo in question is "15", I'd also lower the pole and stretch the "luff" to help pull the draft fwd. If you do a lot of this kind of thing, I'd also argue for a "Seth Special" 90%max size asym when budgets allow.
    Chris Miller
    S/V Sequoia
    1988 38-200 Hull #262
    http://svsequoia.blogspot.com/

  12. #12
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    Seth has already covered this one pretty well but I'll add my experience anyway. We sheet the kite to the cabintop when racing use the primaries when crusing. It allows a grinder better positioning with the trimmer out on the deck. The leads are as far aft as possible on the outboard track and could stand to go further aft but I have not gotten to putting in the padeyes. We rarely carry the kite too tight unless it is light because foils feel like the stall with that much load. We have an A sail that is an AP cut and does not liek to go much tighter than 100*. On the other hand I can sail wing and wing with this kite in light air and do 180*. In breeze I can do 175-180 as well, just not wing and wing. I tack it off the anchor roller and have a 3:1 puchase led along the stanchion bases to a ratchet block with a cleat that can also go to a winch if need be. The cut of this A sail is really great in that I can sail really deep with no pole. I built a pole thinking we were going to race the A sail on a pole to articulate the luff to windward but have found I dont really need too....

  13. #13

    Reaching

    Thanks for the input.
    In the photo we are in second behind a C&C 99 coming to the finish with the yellow kite. sail 30471
    Last edited by e38 owner; 07-10-2008 at 03:47 PM.

  14. #14
    Contributing Partner Ericsean's Avatar
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    Nothing like responding late after starting the thread.

    Of the four E-38's I looked at, mine was the only one with secondarys installed. They aren't self tailing, which is a good thing for spin sheets.

    Anyway Seth, I would love an Asym in Airex, but my budget is limited to the used sail lofts, where you can save big bucks on a lightly used spin, thats why I want a star cut 1.5 oz. I don't want to pick up a sloppy cruising asym, which is all I'm afraid I'll find in the used market.
    Kevin Padden
    1980 E 38 Rettsie, Hull #3

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    Okok

    I hear you-unfortunately you are not likely to find a 1.5 Star Cut that is less than 20 years old-since that design has been obsolete for quite some time.

    I would first look for a used an A-sail from a J 105 or J 109-there should be lots of those around-.

    If this turns up a dead end, then you can try sym kites, but I would re-phrase the search: Reaching kite wanted-.75-1.5 oz.

    This way you are open to more possibilities. Since you want a reacher, you can probabaly get by with .75 since you can't carry a kite at close angles in very much wind, maybe 15 tops, and a .75 is not in trouble at this point.
    This also leaves you open to .75(strong enough in most cases), Airex 700(stronger than the old 1.5), Airex 900 (MUCH stronger than 1.5), and of course the old spongy 1.5 oz fabric. All of these fabrics will work for your application.

    Good luck,
    S
    Last edited by Seth; 07-30-2008 at 10:07 AM.

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