New Wave gets a major refit

The refit (storm damage repair, keel rebedding and Awlgripping) has launched on a positive note:

From the yard:

Hi Geoff,

Helmut has separated the hull from the keel and inspected the keel bolts, Helmut reports that the condition of the keel bolts is good, very little corrosion is evident (see attached pictures).

Looks Good Geoff. Keep us posted.

When they re-attach the keel I asked them to come up with some sort of plates to put under the keel nuts to spread the load better than the OEM washers that seem to deform. I'll be interested to see what they come up with.

Geoff,
Those keel bolts look really good (ie. no corrosion), unlike some in an earlier post where the bolts looked quite corroded. I think that post dealt with leaking in the keel/hull joint, and we were all wondering if slight cracking there was a concern and required dropping/rebedding the keel. Did yours have any crack in the hull/keel joint? Also, do you know if the keel had ever been rebedded previously?
Thanks,
Frank.

Frank, here's the history. I bought the boat in 1995 and stupidly accepted the surveyor's recommendation that there was no reason to be concerned about the brown stain emanating from the keel joint. After consultation with the yard and Pacific Seacraft, I had the keel rebedded with epoxy (with 5200 around the bolts). No problem was found with the bolts. The hull/keel joint stayed intact for the next ten years except for the first 8 inches or so which opened, I believe, because of the force of the mast pushing down while the forestay was pulling the bow up. Then the boat went through the unnamed storm in September of this year and on hauling the joint was visible along 2/3rds the length of the length of the keel. I added that to my insurance claim, but the company didn't go for it, claiming that that keel rebedding is a 10 year maintenance issue.

About 5 years ago I covered the bolts in the bilge with PVC tubes and screw on caps purchased from Home Depot. Using 3M 4000 (not 4200 or 5200), I glued the tubes to the washers under each keel bolt.

My yard thinks I am extremely fastidious about the keel bolts and I confess that I am.

I attach a photograph of the joint after the storm:

Thanks Geoff. In retrospect, do you think the initial surveyor in 1995 might have been right that the crack at the hull/keel joint really wasn't a major problem (though rust coming from there is never good), given how good the bolts look?

In any case, rebedding the keel in 1995 was probably the safer way to go, and redoing it now will give you peace of mind, though the crack doesn't look to bad in the picture above. Had you considered just refairing the crack with epoxy, rather than dropping the keel? It's too bad the insurance company isn't willing to be a bit more helpful on that part of the repair.

Thanks, again.

Frank.

I have confidence in my yard and this was its advice:

After a lengthy discussion with Helmut; Helmut would not suggest strapping or banding the hull/keel join with fiberglass, as any movement of the keel would cause this strapping/banding to eventually fail. the only other option we can suggest would be to try and torque the keel bolts, in the hope that we can minimize the opening between the hull and the keel, requiring that we remove the keel bolt covers that you have installed. We would then grind a "V" along the hull/keel join and fill the "V" with a flexible epoxy, in an attempt to seal the hull keel join. This is in no way a guaranteed repair, this may be a short term (a couple of seasons at most) solution to prevent water from entering the hull/keel join and corroding the keel bolts. The epoxy filler would need to be inspected every few months, to ensure that the epoxy is not separating from the fiberglass or lead and allowing water to ingress into the hull/keel join.

The only real solution to repairing the hull/keel join would be to remove and re-bed the keel, at the same time the keel bolts and the sump/keel grid structure should be fully inspected. If it is your intention to keep the boat for another couple of seasons then consider the first option, If is your intention to keep the boat for another four or five years then I would urge you to re-consider completing the keel re-bedding.

As for the crack not looking too bad, to me the fact that the keel was rebedded in epoxy meant that any crack was a structural failure.

Geoff, thanks for your detailed reply--sounds like the yard gave you some pretty clear advice. Given the quality of these Ericson boats, it's worth taking care of them.
Frank.

That's certainly my thinking. If it were a Beneteau, I be be facing replacing the entire keel every 15 years because you can use only mild steel (i.e. not stainless) in cast iron.

Painting is complete!

Looks great, Geoff!

Great job-just want to be sure about something, though:
The "crack" if it is indeed the seam where the keel bolts to the hull fillet, is certainly not a structural failure. If there were a crack ABOVE the keel joint, THAT would be something serious..the bolts DO need to be retorqued periodically..which leads to my seconding the notion that glassing that keel seam is a huge mistake since there is some natural movment here..
Are we on the same page?

Nice refit, though!

S

Seth, I agree with you about the keel/hull joint and movement. But my 35 has absolutely no sign of a crack and it was glassed many years(8) ago by a previous owner so there seems to be no movement of my keel.

Keel

Your boat looks good; now we just need a spring thaw. After haul out i saw the dreadful looking rust stains coming from the joint of my boat, about 17" from the rear edge of the keel. I've been grappling with whether to drop the keel. I'm curious that, with your boat, when you dropped the keel, there was no corrosion of the keel bolt. Where was the rust coming from? I would think the bolt would have been half eaten away, similar to the pic on another thread on this site (the thread that got me panicky about this business in the 1st place!)

Seth and others . . . It is my understanding that if the keel is attached with 5200 one might expect some movement and opening of the crack. However if epoxy is used, then the crack indicates a failure of the joint (although the bolts themselves are embedded in 5200.) I used epoxy because in 1995 PSC (the guy with the British accent . . . Seth, maybe you know who he is) was quite insistent on it. My yard also recommends epoxy because it is apparently easier to repair (the 5200 can rip up the stub when the keel is dropped).

As for the brown stain, that's what got me "freaked" when I bought the boat, but I don't know the source since there was no corrosion. One suggestion was a (discarded) washer that was not up to snuff. Short of rebedding the keel I think that having a bolt or two removed is good cheap insurance as that seems to be where the corrosion is most likely to occur due to the wet condition of the bilge on these boats.

Once I get inside the boat I'll take some photos of the new backing plates I requested to spread the load better than the malleable washers that Ericson used.

treilley said:

Seth, I agree with you about the keel/hull joint and movement. But my 35 has absolutely no sign of a crack and it was glassed many years(8) ago by a previous owner so there seems to be no movement of my keel.

Click to expand...

Just going to throw out the thought that if only a single layer or two of glass was used over the joint, and especially if epoxy resin is used instead of polyester resin (epoxy resin withstands much more flexing), it would be quite possible that the taped over joint could flex and not crack and maintain bond to the hull and keel. I would expect any filler or fairing compound to fail on this type of joint, or if applied over fiberglass over this joint.

All my keels have been encapsulated, so I must caveat that the above thoughts aren't from hands on experience with a keel joint, just general epoxy fiberglass work I've done over the years.

I must add that New Wave's refit looks great. Good job!



.

Geoff

That is one fine looking yacht.

I'm always in awe of an Ericson's lines.

Very beautiful and sound.


John

keel

All; I don't think the issue here is whether glassing is the final cure as opposed to re-bedding. Both Geoff's boat and mine were victims of storm damage (In my case TS Ernesto; I believe Geoff''s as well, as it occurred in Sept 06) When i bot my boat in July 06, there was no rust stain. 2 months later (after the storm) there was. The hull took quite a pounding on the dock pilings, although no damage was visable (other than the rust stain). I suspect the best long term solution is to keep the hull off the docks and rocks.

Nice

Geoff - she looks great! The dark blue looks very good. What else, if anything is left to do?

Pay for it! (And put on the new dodger and sail cover - Sunbrella Toast).

Here are photos of two of the three beefed up backing plates I had my yard fabricate when reinstalling the keel in order to distribute the load better than Ericson's thin washers: