Starter Problem

As a part of the boat survey last month, an intermitent problem was detected with the starter - one would need to "toggle" the starter switch (only occasionally) to get the engine to initially turn over. A direct and steady push would get the oil light to dim, but the starter wouldn't engage.
The starter/solenoid was then replaced, but the problem seems to continue, albeit intermittently.
Would the recommendation be to next replace the starter and glow plug switches?
Specifics:
Universal 12
Control panel - key switch, starter switch, glow plug switch (must be pushed while engaging the starter), oil light

Switches could be the problem but they didn't solve my problem. The fix recommended by most Ericson users and, I believe, by Universal is to increase the size of the wire from the starter switch to the engine and to rewire the starter and glow plug switches. As delivered, the starter and glow plug switches are in series. In order to activate the starter you must also power the glow plugs. This takes a lot of amps. It is a simple job to rewire the switches in parallel. This allows you to heat the glow plugs and then release that switch before hitting the starter. The starter then has the full capacity of your battery to work with. If someone else dosen't give you the rewiring wire size and route for the first solution I'll get it from the boat and send it to you. I'll be out of town for the weekend so it will be early next week.

Ray

Look in the projects section

The re-wiring of the starter/glowplug is covered in the projects section, complete with a diagram.

//sse

I have had similar problems with older wiring. With age and use the resistance will increase until eventually there isn't enough amperage to do the job. Increasing the wire size along with replacing it will give the wire a much longer service life before it needs to be done again.

My Universal 12 has needed the starter push button to be pressed several times to get a good starter engagement, while holding the glow button even when new.

I've cleaned the ground spots etc, finally I dug into the back of the panel and found the screws on the starter button loose! This cured mine.

The starter motors seem pretty strong so wiring and switches are the most common culprits. I think the disconnecting of the glow and starter buttons is a great way to reduce amp drw during starting.

Starter problems

I checked the boat wiring against the Universal wiring diagram, and found things to be pretty close, with two exceptions:
1) There is no 30A fuse on the #5 (Red) at the ammeter (that I could find).
2) A 20A fuse has been added to the connection between the key switch and the ammeter. (With the starter toggle problem I've had, this 20A fuse has blown several times)
I reviewed the rewire project that Sean Engle suggested. Without making the three modifications listed (one is dependent upon the other), couldn't I simply replace (or add to) the problematic Yellow-Red #16 wire; i.e., add a second #16, or completely replace the #16 with a #10?
I did rewire the interlink between the glow switch and the starter switch - that seems to be a worthwhile project for several reasons.
Thanks

It seems like the no 5 wire is the main 12v feed from the battery via starter, thro the ammeter to the keyswitch, from here all switched 12v supplies are taken. I feel there should be a fuse in here to prevent dead shorts in this permenantly hot wire. The 20A fuse in the wire from ammeter to B on the keyswitch, in your case, is helping but not protecting the whole circuit considering the charging lead 4 could be a source of a short.

In my 26 there is an untidy "clump" of wires attached to the underside of the cockpit floor which appears to be the way the excess length of wire from the panel to the engine was absorbed. It looks to me like there could be a fuse hiding in this. I haven't summoned the energy to look yet.

Universal Diesel Starting Problems

Spent the last 12 years living with the sometimes very frustrating starting problems concerning the Universal Diesel. In my case its a M25XP. Got some wonderful information and diagrams from Sean Engle's contributions at this forum. However, in my case, I simply disconnected the 16-ga. wire from the starter button on the control panel and the starter solonoid and replaced it with 10-ga. and a new in-line fuse holder (20 amp fuse). The results are absolutely amazing! I even followed up with a visit to my favorite Universal dealer here in the S.F. Bay Area for their input to my slight modification. They said that I should have no problems other than going to a 30-amp fuse if I start blowing the 20-amp. So far, no problems after 2 months, just fires right up! And just with one battery selected! I used to have BOTH batteries selected and then it was maybe yes, maybe no.

It APPEARS (there are no absolutes when it comes to fixing electrical problems!) that by taking the glow plug switch out of the starter circuit (i.e., you don't have to hold down, and therefore activate the glow plugs when the starter is engaged), and not holding the glow switch down during starter activation, that my problem is solved. (However, this may not work in cold weather.)

When time permits, I intend to follow the recommendation to replace the #5 with a 10ga wire, but for now all SEEMS well.
Thanks

I used to have a very frustrating problem with starting my 38-200. It would always start fine when cold but after motoring for several hours and turning off the engine, I could not get it to restart until the engine cooled again! As you might expect, this was not only frustrating to me but also to the boats waiting in line for access to the diesel dock (when this usually happened since I would refill after a long motoring session and then try to get off the fuel dock)!
After multiple fees to "engine experts" at several marinas, nothing worked (including taking the glow plug out of the starting switch circuit). I could always start and motor the boat away but I knew that the real test would only be when the engine was thoroughly hot.
Finally, I noticed that the connection to the starter solenoid did not look so good (the wire from the starter switch to the solenoid). I cut off the last 3 inches and crimped on a new lug and pushed it onto the terminal. Ever since then, the motor has started immediately without hesitation, even after a long motoring run. This simple change has definitely fixed my starting problem with no reoccurrence over the past three years.

Bob -
You don't say whether your restart problem was a failure of the engine to turn over, or it would turn over but not start. Given your "solution" I suspect the former. If so, you could always "hot wire" by placing a screwdriver across the solenoid tab and the main feed from the battery.

I just replaced the #16 from the starter push button to the solenoid with a new #10 directly, and everything seems to work the way it's supposed to.

In reply, the motor did not turn over at all and in retrospect, I could have bypassed the starter switch with a screwdriver as you described. I like the idea of using heavier gauge wiring for the starter switch and plan on doing that in the near future. Meanwhile, I've never had a reoccurrence of the starting problem over the past three years.

I've been having the intermittant start problem on my M-15 (5411) engine. Had engine pulled this winter and while it was out had them replace the starter. I still have the intermittant start problem and will be heading down to install the wiring modifications outlined here and in the Project section.

Will jumper from the line side of the glow plug switch (or load side of the key switch - depends on arrangement and access once I cram myself into that port lazerette) to the line side of the starter switch with #10 gauge wire. As noted, this eliminates the need to hold down the glow plug switch when starting. This eliminates a little voltage drop across the glow plug connections and switch contacts as the juice heads to the starter button. It also eliminates the heavy draw of the glow plugs while you're trying to engage the solenoid and crank. You can still, and normally should, start it the same way. Hold the glow plug down and then simultaneously press the starter button. However, now, when restarting a warm engine, just press the starter. Or, if you are really low on battery power and still need the glow plug. Warm up on the glow plugs, then remove your finger from the glow plug button and hit the starter simultaneously. Your glow plug will still be hot, but you'll save a few precious available amps to kick in the solenoid and crank the starter.

Then will remove the Yellow-Red (#3 in diagram) wire from the load side of the starter button to the start solenoid and lift the other end from the starter solenoid. Then will replace it with a #10 gauge wire. This should give me one honking jolt to that pesky solenoid to give me reliable starts.

But here is my question. In the engine wiring diagram (and real life) there is a 20 amp fuse on the wire leading to the starter solenoid (#3 Yellow-Red). The fuse is located on the end of the wire near the solenoid. Shouldn't this fuse be locacted farther upstream near the instrument panel? Where the diagram shows the fuse, it provides no short circuit protection to most of this Yellow-Red wire, only to the start solenoid itself. While I'm installing my modification, I will be putting the in-line fuse holder closer to the starter button. Access to it should be relatively easy through the lazerette hatch. And it's one less component exposed to engine compartment vibration, heat, and oil.

This also made me look at the other 30 A fuse on the 12V battery supply (#5 red) wire. The fuse is located on the end of the wire in the control panel area. Shouldn't this fuse be located near the other end (line side) close to the battery/starter connection? This would better protect the panel wiring, particularly the red 12 V supply wire to the instrument panel. For fault protection there should also be a fuse near the alternator output on the (#6 orange) wire leading from the alternator output. This is another current source. However, lack of this fuse may be intentional. If this fuse blew inadvertantly you might lose control of the alternator voltage, damaging it and other system components.

Well, this afternoon I'm off to the adventures of contorting myself into the lazerette. If I'm not heard from, run down to Yankee Boat Yard and look for the feet sticking up out of Lady J's lazerette. Sounds like a scene from CSI.

Well I did crawl around the lazerette to make the starter modifications. I was actually able with some significant effort to turn around in the lazarette as needed. Glad I had passed on some doughnuts at work though. It was a VERRRY tight fit.

While I did make the #5 wire conversion to 10 ga (with a new fuse holder mounted closer to the start button), and the bypass around the glow plug switch I found two interesting things.

1st, I found the terminal screw on the line side of the glow plug switch extremely loose, like someone else posted here. I think the heavy intermittant current through this terminal causes some expanding and contracting to make this suceptible to this. While I did complete the modification anyway, I bet that simply retightening this would have solved my intermittant start problem by itself. Terminal was so loose I was suprised I could engage the starter at all.

One recommendation. #10 wire for this replacement might be overkill. #12 wire, especially since you're bypassing the harness plug connectors, probably provides plenty of current. While #10 size terminals are readily available, Most in-line fuse holders are sized only up to #12. Had to do some tweaking to make the one I bought work. After the mod. So far, so good. Solid starter engagement every time I hit the start button. And it's much more convenient bypassing the glow plug button when I'm doing a warm engine restart. I'm just trying to make myself feel better about spending $100s on a new starter by saying the old one was 20+ years old anyway and very hard to get at if I had to replace it while the engine is still in the boat.

2nd, while working, the back of the starter switch fell off. Didn't bump it. Just moving wiring moved it enough to fall out. Turns out the body has developed a couple longintudinal cracks so the crimps don't hold the rear terminal tightly anymore. Something for all those with these vintage boats to check. When I pull the switch permanently will post a photo of how bad it is.

Hard finding a replacement two-position swith. Ended up buying a Cole Hersee model 489 from West Marine. Would have preferred the 489-3 which is the same switch, but sounds more weatherproof. However, could not find a source for this. Also, this switch is rated for 10 amps. Not sure what the actual glow plug draw or starter solenoid current is. Panel's fused for 30A and start circuit for 20A. Torensen Marine has quoted me a switch (A Univeral part nubmer) for about twice the price but I'm still waiting for a response from them since it's unclear whether this is a two position switch or what it's current rating is.

Anyone else replace this switch? I've continued to limp along with my loosely put together switch. I have the Cole Hersee 489 replacment in-hand the original switch completely disintigrates.

jreddington asked, "Anyone else replace this switch? I've continued to limp along with my loosely put together switch. I have the Cole Hersee 489 replacment in-hand the original switch completely disintigrates."

I had the same intermittent starting problems last year due to the universal Universal solenoid wiring. While doing the wiring mod, I replaced by key switch with a standard ON-OFF-START type which has worked well so far.

Thanks for the feedback. I try to keep as original as I can and want to stick to a two position on-off switch since the start would be superfluous as I have a separate start button.

Wiring mod

Having made the wiring modification to a customers E 35 MK3, I used 8AWG from the starter stud to the battery position on the ignition switch and a 30A fuse at the starter stud. Got rid of the Amp meter and put on a volt meter instead. Wired the start button seperate of the glow plug button. Customer has had no problems since.
Also if one needs a heavy duty ignition switch check out the Cole Hersey 95511-B. Good luck and sounds like most of you are able to fix your trouble just fine. Ryan

What is the condition of the glow plugs?

A diesel will start even if the glow plugs don't work.

John

Universal wiring modifications

Is there any way to get a less fuzzy copy of the wiring diagram for the three wiring modifications? Even with my glasses my tried old eyes are having a bit of trouble.

Thanks,

John Wressell
Jessie Elizabeth
1983 35, Mark III

John - The pdf drawing on the projects page is the best there is. My original hard copy isn't very good. If you can find a Universal owner's manual, you can work between that and the modified drawing.

If you have specific questions email them to me and I Will get back to you as soon as I can. I will be going sailing again Friday morning for five or six days.