E-32-2 Tracking and rudder size

Hello All--

I am in contract on a 1975 Ericson 32 in really nice condition. I sea trialed it last weekend, and I really like the boat. This would be a family boat/low key racer for the SF Bay.

I reading some posts on this design, some owners report that downwind steering in bigger winds can be a problem. How severe is this? I did notice that the boat required me to think about steering--but I just assumed that since this is a bigger boat than what am am used to, and it has wheel steering, that I just wasn't used to the feeling.

So, is this a fatal flaw, or something I should only worry about if I were doing a great deal of competitive racing?

--Thanks,
Chris

Just on a general note, I'd say a sensitive helm that requires more attention is not a function of boat size, but rather boat design (regardless of size). Big or small boats with longer keels and skeg hung rudders will track like a train with no-one at the wheel, whereas a canoe-underbody with high-aspect semi-balanced spade will squirrel all over the place if it's 32 feet or 82 feet, and generally requires a more attentive helmsman.

Since the E-32 threads I have followed do not seem to indicate any unusual steering problem, I would wonder if the situation is similar to our Olson 34. Some folks say its rudder is too small, partly because it is the same rudder as the smaller Olson 911S (30 foot Schumacher design from which our design was scaled up...).
I have asked a local builder/sailor of ocean racing ultralight designs about a possible change someday, and he said that if the boat was at all hard to helm, I should adjust the sails! This from a guy with multiple thousands of sea miles in all conditions.
Absent some built-in design flaw, like the rudder (or keel) being incorrectly placed fore-n-aft... it sounds like the E-32/2 just needs to have the sails balanced.
Lots of these boats out there; lots of happy owners.
Check with Shaun on this site for good input.

Best,
Loren

Thanks for the above replies. Loren, I did e-mail with Shaun, who upgraded to a Cal 40 rudder design (he can't say enough about the boat), but Nate makes a good point about the boat's design. There seem to be two camps here: trim sails,and/or modify rudder.

I think as long as the survey this Friday goes well, I'm going to go a head and purchase the boat. I'll work on learning how to trim her, and if I keep the boat for the long haul, and feel the need, it seems that modifying the rudder wouldn't be too terrible a job.

Anyway, the seller really likes the boat, but bought a bluewater design. He's kept it cleas and has done a lot of maintanance, so I'm hoping the survey comes back positive.

--Chris

Enjoy the boat

But, the question (and answers) are not quite as simple as "new rudder vs.trim sails". There are many full keel type boats that track straight as an arrow, and many that don't. In the 60's and 70's, as boats began to have fin keels and spade rudders (skeg and no skeg), these boats varied greatly in their sailing qualities. A good comparison is the Columbia 50/52 vs.the Cal 40.

The Columbia's had a very long fin keel and skeg mounted spade rudder, and the Cal 40 has a sharp fin and free spinning spade rudder. Contrary to what is often said, the Columbia (especially when pressed hard) is a MESS in heavy air reaching and running, despite the underbody being closer to the type one associates with good tracking, where the Cal 40 (relatively) goes right where you want-when you want it to.

The point is that for cruising, I agree: trim the sails and balance the boat. In heavy air, you can reduce sail until it behaves right.

But when racing, this is not enough. As good in many conditions as that line of E-boats is, the combination of keel, hull and smallish rudder make them pretty squirrely reaching and running in big air with lot's of sail up (racing mode). Since you cannot change those hulls or keels very easily, the only real option is a new, bigger, rudder. And it is well documented that these boats are TRANSFORMED when this mod is done-Not only are they much better handling in the rough stuff, they point higher (less leeway) in all conditions. These boats DO have a smallish rudder for their size.

The solution? For coastal cruising and day sailing-leave 'em be and trim the sails to balance them out. For real offshore sailing and/or racing, do the rudder mod.

BTW- The Olson 34 has a totally different, and less squirrely behavior when sailing. The rudder MIGHT be a bit small, but for cruising that boat, just trim correctly and you should be fine. For MOST racing, it is fine, too. For really hard racing in rough conditions, consider it(bigger rudder)-but it is a different dynamic at play with that hull shape than it is with the BK 32-2 and 35-2.

Good luck with the new boat!
S

I have a 1970 Ericson 32-2. I just recently took my rudder in and had it modified. It was reshaped to a more efficient foil shape and lengthened. About 3 sq. ft of area was added to the rudder, but the re-shaping was fairly dramatic. Because of other work being done on the boat, I've only had the opportunity to sail her once since the new rudder was put on and the wind was VERY light.
I have to say I'm happy with the work that was done and the rudder looks great, but as for an opinion on the difference in performance, I'll have to get back to you.

Jim McCone
Voice of Reason E-32-2 Hull #134

Jim--

Where did you have the work done? How long was you boat rudderless? How long did you sail the boat with the stock rudder, and what made you want to have it modified?

--Chris

Chris, we had the work done at Dencho Marine, in Long Beach. This is Dennis Choate's boatyard. The rudder was off for about a month, maybe a little bit more. It was easy to get off and easy to put back on. I kept it off for another week after that to paint and wet sand it.

My partner and I race the boat quite a bit. In fact, I would say that 80 percent of her use is racing. We have entered her in the Marina del Rey to Puerto Vallarta race next february. Knowing that race is an off-wind race for the whole 1175 miles, I was looking for ways to improve our performance and make the trip safer -- especially given that we're doing THIS offshore race in THIS older, shorter E-32. The stock rudder is almost spade-shaped and we found when sailing off the wind with a chute, we were struggling somewhat with control. That issue increased as the wind strenth increase.

I was looking for something of a higher aspect-ratio and deeper design to keep a bite in the water when sailing under the spinnaker. I looked at possibly a new design. I spoke with Alan Andrews, a noteworthy NA around here. He gave me prices on a new blade/shaft combo with the design and architecture thrown in -- which was more than I bought the boat for.
Then I was given Dennis' number to call. He thought we could use the s/s shaft and just put a new blade on, and quoted me about $3000 for that job. However, when he saw the rudder, he thought he could modify it, rather than completely replace it. It was his opinion that the difference in performance between a completely new blade on the old shaft, over a redesign of the current blade did not justify the cost difference. I went with his opinion.

Seth advised me to give the rudder to Dennis then don't call, don't bother him, let him do his work. Thats what I did.
Hope that helps.

Jim McCone
Voice of Reason E-32-2 Hull #134

Jim--

Thanks for the overview. Since I mainly plan on doing Bay cruising/daysailing with some local PHRF racing, I think I probably could get away with sailing the stock rudder. Still, if I kept the boat for the long haul, and wanted to take the boat on longer voyages--or if I can't get used to the steering downwind and trimming for it--it's good to know that modifying the rudder isn't prohibitive in terms of cost.

Thanks again, and I 'll let the group know what happens with the survey on Friday.

--Chris

Jim,

Have you been able to get a feel for how well the rudder mod worked?

Mark,

The rudder modification did wonders for the steering downwind. The narrow stern still throws us around a little with following seas, but the rudder has never lost bite, even under the chute when the apparent wind picks up over 20 and the seas are steep.

I was hoping for a little more upwind lift with the higher aspect ratio on the new design, but on that part of the rudder equation, I'm not convinced there was any noticeable difference.

Hope this helps.

Jim McCone
Voice of Reason, E-32-2 Hull #134
Redondo Beach, CA

Thanks Jim. Have you noticed any difference with weather helm in strong conditions?