E38 line sizing questions...?

Hello E38 owners! (and anyone else who may have a clue)
I am researching line size requirements for my E38 as I am looking to upgrade a good portion of the running rigging. What I would like to know specifically is the recommended line sizing for each controll. Some of mine look a little large, others seem puny...
Heres the list:
Main/head sail, spare halyards (wire/line type) = 3/8"
Spinnaker halyard (all line) = 1/2"
Spin pole topping lift = 3/8"
Boom vang (soft) = 1/2"+
Main sheet = 1/2"+
Genoa sheets = 1"

I have entertained the idea of changing to all-line halyards and the recommendations I see calls for 1/2" line. I am thinking of replacing rope clutches too. Rope clutches that hold 3/8" line generally don't hold 1/2" as well so I'd like to coordinated the purchasing. Please let me know what is appropriate size-wize. I do like the large size on the sheets and vang as they are easier on the hands.

I'm looking at Lewmar D2 rope clutches and the drawback to their design appears to be narrow line size specs for each clutch size. They are rated 5/16" - 3/8" or 3/8" - 7/16" or 1/2" - 9/16"

Thanks, RT

Hey Rob,
I use 3/8 for all halyards. Actually a 5/16 for the jib halyard, its vectran #8000lbs break. Get rid of that nasty wire...
1" seems way too big for genoa sheets. I think mine are 1/2", maybe 7/16". Only reason to size up for those would be easier on the hands. I wouldnt go larger than 5/8 though.

With the newer fibers you can go smaller and still get the low stretch/high strength. Its more expensive but there are blends that are much cheaper. Samson XLS Extra is dyneema/polypro blend for lowstretch. I just bought 3/8 for a spinn halyard for .60/foot on ebay... Warpspeed(100% Dyneema) on the otherhand is about $2.50foot

Your Mainsheet will run much easier with smaller line. At 4600lbs break strength, 3/8 should do fine for a mainsheet.

Pole lift could be much smaller, 1/4" should be plenty strong.

And the vang even at a 4:1, 3/8 should be fine. At half the ropes strength you could support 8000lbs. More than I want to pull at one spot on the middle of my boom!

100% on with Ben here. You may want to look in the specs section on this site at the running rigging spec sheet for the 38 the lengths are pretty close.

3/8 on all halyards is fine. 5/16 is plenty strong provided you use a good line that doesnt stretch too much. See www.apsltd.com for some good choices at decent prices. Mainsheet I used 7/16 for comfort but Ben is right about 3/8 being plenty strong and will run faster. Biggest line I have is 1/2 Jibsheets and they could be 7/16 and still be comfortable. Spin Sheets I would go down to 5/16 or get a good 3/8 double braid and strip the cover to shave some weight off your clews.

As for clutches I am geeked over the Spinlock XTS clutches. On a 38 they are rated for the loads, the XAS version is a little underspec IMHO, depends on what you use it for. You can get different jaws to put in the XTS version to better grip smaller hi-tech lines. Definately get rid of the wire, but check your sheaves to make sure they are smooth, no burrs, and can accept line.

I'm a big fan of Samson XLS line for sheets and warpspeed is great for halyards. Lots of choices if you want to go hi-tech. I am making a halyard for my furler that is going to be 1/4 vectran or spectra with a cover where it exits the mast. I'm putting a small loop in the lower end that I can attach a messenger line to. This way the actual halyard will only have 2 feet extra at full hoist. Just enough to get on a winch for luff tension changes. This gets the 60'+ of line out of the cockpit. You have to use the messenger to hoist and lower the sail which maybe happens a few times a year.

I agree with Ted on the XTS clutches, they have worked really well for me. I changed out the cams(smaller) for the 5/16 halyard and I get a lot less movement when the line comes off the winch until the cam locks. I would recommend getting the clutch with the right size cams as its a simple but 5 handed job to pull them apart and get it all back together.

Thats a great idea for the RF halyard. I hate that extra unused expensive line coiled and taking up space. My vectran is uncovered in the mast so I have to "sky" it with a tag line when the jib is off. Vectran is no good in UV but I see Amsteel uncovered all the time for running backs. Even my vang has it exposed to UV. Maybe you wouldnt need a cover at the top for Amsteel, only at the grip end for the clutch and winch?
A rigger friend talked about making me a halyard with half the needed length(less $$$) and pulling the cover down to use for the "tow line" to get the sail up, then the core appears at the clutch when the full hoist is reached for loading. Doesnt get the extra out of the cockpit though.

$0.02

I'll get in here too, since I've just finished up replacing all the running rigging on Sequoia... I went with 3/8ths XLS Extra for new Main, Spin/spare, and Jib halyards as well as the soft vang and the main sheet and pole lift; 3/8ths XLS for traveler; 1/2 trophy braid for jib sheets.
Then I used a Spinlock double XCS (I got a really good deal on it, otherwise I would have gone with XTS) for Jib and spin halyards, and used 2 double XAS's for reefing lines, pole lift, spin tack, etc... Spinlock clutches have a much wider size range, but those domino lewmars are really nice!
Ditching the wire will make you much happier... as far as the rest, I think that the 1/2-1" stuff is overkill other than 1/2 or 9/16ths for genoa sheets.
Chris

I replaced the halyards about 2 years ago
I think purchased the following and it has worked well

Jib/Main Halyard 3/8 Warpspeed

Spinaker halyard 7/16 XLS

Spinnaker Sheet/ Guy 5/16 endura braid (a little thin to hold but plenty strong and very little stretch (purchased from Layline)

Topping lift 3/8 xls

I am not sure but I thing the jib sheets are 1/2 they may be a litle larger
I can check

Defender has very good prices on Samson products and we were able to do the splices ourselfs

Thank you for all the input! I am planning on changing out the sheets, vang and maybe the halyards. I don't really see the big problem with the wire halyards particularly with the jib as it goes up and stays there.... I understand the "meathooks" issue but my halyards are only 1 season old and I am loathe to just spend the cash when they work fine. The sheets/control lines are the main issue to change to a more comfortable size, install the appropriately sized Lewmar clutches and sail the keel off! RT

Hard to argue with you on the jib halyard but you may want to see if you can get rid of the extra line in th cockpit. Is the halyard a wire to rope splice? I'm guessing it is and the line ends up in your clutch. As I stated earlier I am building a furler halyard that is in 2 parts. Once you are hoisted you detatch the tail and just have a few feet aft of the clutch for luff tension adjustments. Lots of good ideas here. Its hard to beat XLS for comfort and price. It lasts reasonably long but I don't like it for halyards due to stretch. Makes great control lines and sheets though. Good luck and I'll keep my eye out for you in Newport in July when I come up to race my other boat.

Ted,
Yes the halyards are wire/rope with the rope part ending in the clutch. The splice actually ends up between the deck organizer and the rope clutches so it is easy to inspect. Again, I don't have a real issue with the wire/rope setup. Since I pull the halyard from the cockpit and use the winch to finish it off I don't touch the wire anyway. By all means, look me up when you get to Newport. RT

Will do. We are coming up for the Volkswagen Sail Newport One Design July 7-8. We are staying at a B & B: Garder Cottage, 28 Mann Street, Newport.

Newport OD

Seems like a popular place this year...
I'll be in town from July 18-23 for the Ben 36.7 North Americans...
Chris

3/8" xls extras enough

I just wanted to bring this thread back from the dead. I wanted to get some more input on whether 3/8" xls extra is suitable for a main halyard? I have the original rigging spec that says 3/8" rope - 7/32" wire. I'm not with the boat right now but it just seems like the line was larger than 3/8". And from looking at this http://www.samsonrope.com/Documents/RM_Line Selection Guide_APR2013_WEB.pdf I would assume I would want 7/16" xls extra, and to go to 3/8" I would need to upgrade to warp speed.

Does anyone have thoughts on this?

lines

http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|2078767|2078774|2078781&id=111371
http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|2078767|2078774|2078783&id=1645490
http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|2078767|2079473|2079480&id=749370
http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|2078767|2079473|2079480&id=749256
http://www.apsltd.com/c-9563-line-by-use.aspx

I would suggest warpseed or endura for main and jib halyards. Much lower stretch similar to wire. Depending on your clutch set up if any the 5/16 is stronger than the 7/16 xls extra

I used warpseed and did my own splices.

Smaller Diameter, and More Technology

Our original halyards were probably about the same sizing as yours. We have an '88 tall rig O-34 with quite a bit of sail area. It's been awhile since we dumped all the orig. four wire-to-rope halyards due to meathooks and obsolescence but I seem to recall that the tails were 7/16 or 1/2. i.e. noticeably fat.

I changed to 5/16 T-900 hi tech. Break strength is around 7k.

** Key thing is.... will the small dia hold in your existing clutches?
Ours do. That smaller size is likely the very smallest size that will hold.

So I would look at the clutch specs first, and then decide.

Loren

Go small......seconded

Loren Beach said:

Our original halyards were probably about the same sizing as yours. We have an '88 tall rig O-34 with quite a bit of sail area. It's been awhile since we dumped all the orig. four wire-to-rope halyards due to meathooks and obsolescence but I seem to recall that the tails were 7/16 or 1/2. i.e. noticeably fat.

I changed to 5/16 T-900 hi tech. Break strength is around 7k.

** Key thing is.... will the small dia hold in your existing clutches?
Ours do. That smaller size is likely the very smallest size that will hold.

So I would look at the clutch specs first, and then decide.

Loren

Click to expand...

Even if the smaller line won't hold in the clutches, you can try to sew on a small length of oversized line cover onto the small line at a strategic position. Then the existing clutch can hold it. Make the sewn on cover even longer if you want the tail of your line to be more "friendly" to your hands, too. You can use a Speedy Stitcher Awl or even a large needle and thread to easily sew covers on.