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Ericson center cockpit drains

Kenneth K

1985 32-3, Puget Sound
Blogs Author
Trying to solve the age-old Ericson problem of the center cockpit drains during winter. I guess on some boats it's the outboard scuppers that drain via a through-hull in the galley. On my boat it's the center scuppers, meaning these hoses are full of water all winter, and subject to freezing....not good.

I'm going to try covering the center scuppers with these pads--silicone stuck to foam pads, the silicone pressed into the shape of the scupper grate.

20191116_141405.jpg20191116_142831.jpg

Adding weighted jugs on top to keep them firmly in place. Cheap, easy, and worth a try. But will it work?
 
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Bolo

Contributing Partner
Rubber Plugs

It might be more effective to remove the drain plate, put a membrane over the hole, and replace the drain plate.

What I've done in the past winter seasons was to remove the drain plates, then fill the scupper with anti-freeze. Then open and close the seacock (mine's located in the galley under the sink) to (Hopefully) drain out the water below the water line past the point of the anti-freeze. Then I'd top off the anti-freeze again and use a black rubber stopper (something you'd see in a chem lab) to plug both holes. The kind I used fit flush to the deck. Then I'd put the drain plate back in place. BTW - Look on Amazon for "rubber stoppers". I'm not sure what size to recommend since I'm not near my boat today.

Only problem was in the spring I had trouble getting the rubber stoppers back out! But with a coat hanger made into a tool with a "L" at the end I was able to get below the stoppers and coax them out. Next time I'm going to drill a small hole through the stopper and with a sail repair needle push through some heavy line and tie it to a washer on the other side so I can pull the stopper out. Applying some Vasoline around the stopper would probably help too.

I say, "Next time", because this winter the boat is being put up on the hard and so I'll just open the seacock to the center drains for the winter. I did have freezing damage to that line once which presented itself by draining into the bilge and the pump activating every 30 minutes or so. Replacing that hose was a chore but that's a story for another time.
 
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bgary

Advanced Beginner
Blogs Author
Trying to solve the age-old Ericson problem of the center cockpit drains during winter.

I go a slightly different direction.... I cover the plates with "preservation tape" (I love that stuff!), which does an adequate job of sealing them, and then I close the thru-hull under the sink. Yeah, there's water in the hose all winter, but I figure /A/ if it freezes and cracks the hose it'll make a little mess but with the thru-hull closed it won't threaten the boat, and /B/ the water below the surface is generally warmer than the air around here in the winter, plus I have a heater going that keeps the space at least 50F all winter, so... the chances of that hose-full-of-salt-water freezing are fairly low.

On a related (?) aside.... I'm pondering a possible reconfiguration of my cockpit drain system.

At present, they're set up like this: (sorry for the crude diagram)

cockpit drains (now).jpg

The outboard drains are connected to the same-side thru-hull under the counter. Which means that at some angles of heel (20 degrees shown here), the outboard drains are below the waterline, and water comes up into the footwell. Not a huge problem, but a little annoying.

I understand the original configuration was that those outboard drains connected to the opposite-side thru-hull. Which would solve the problem of water coming in through the drain, but effectively make the drains useless in normal conditions - when heeled, the opposite-side thru-hull would be uphill from the drain, so water in the cockpit wouldn't flow out.

I'm planning to replace all the hoses, and thinking about connecting things differently...

-- plumbing the outboard drains through a tee to the below-the-sink thru-hull. The thru-hull would always be downhill of the drain, so water in the cockpit would flow out. Water *might* be able to come in when heeled, because the outboard drain would be below the effective waterline. Not sure. I *may* be able to mitigate that by raising the tee under the cockpit floor to keep it above the heeled waterline.

-- plumbing the inboard drains to the same-side thru-hulls under the counter. Should always be above the waterline, and if the water-level in the cockpit is that high the short/straight run to the thru-hull should help it drain pretty quickly.

cockpit drains (plan).jpg

I can't think of another way to plumb the outboard drains so that they drain - AND don't let water back-flow up into the cockpit - when the boat is heeled to a point where the drain-plate is below the waterline....

Thoughts?
 
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Kenneth K

1985 32-3, Puget Sound
Blogs Author
Some good ideas all around.

Does anyone know the construction of the cockpit sole in the vicinity of those drains? I've been concerned about repeatedly removing/inserting the screws for the drain grates. If it's wood-core under there, I had concerns about properly re-bedding the screws each time to prevent getting the core wet. If there is a core....
 

steven

Sustaining Member
For winter I remove the drain grates and use kitchen/bathtub drain stoppers in the holes. I think 1 /14" fits (I will check next time I am on board)
Get them at the Dollar Store and keep a few extra on hand.
They typically have a ring for a pull chain on top so they are easy to pull out in the spring.

Of course if not covered have to periodically drain the cockpit.
For that I use a temp 12v bilge pump with alligator clips to the battery (so I don't have to drain through nthe cabin and then re-winterize the pipes).

I share your concern about the grates. I seal the screw holes with silicon gloop when I have them off and re-bed the scews in the spring. Hope this is working.

--Steve
 
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Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Ken, after 30 years whatever caulk was applied is long gone so anything you do is an improvement. Short screws will do it, with a bit of butyl tape.

If in doubt just fill the old holes with epoxy and drill new ones. Will be hidden by the plate anyhow.
 

Kenneth K

1985 32-3, Puget Sound
Blogs Author
Yeah, I suppose epoxy-tapped threads that don't penetrate the lower surface would be a good permanent fix to access the drains. I'll add that to the list.
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
I understand the original configuration was that those outboard drains connected to the opposite-side thru-hull. Which would solve the problem of water coming in through the drain

The trouble is that on this boat (my E381), the cockpit drain hoses are crossed.

Water still comes in to wet your foot when heeled under some conditions to windward.

I conclude that the pressure of water passing under the counter at 7 knots just laughs off the crossed configuration and gurgles up the leeward drain anyhow.

Factory diagram

E381 Cockpit Scuppers.jpg
 
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Kenneth K

1985 32-3, Puget Sound
Blogs Author
That must be what the seacocks (ball valves) are for. No other good reason to put valves on drains that exit above the w/l.

Edited to add: other than maybe to slow the demise of an already-sinking yacht?
 
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nquigley

Sustaining Member
That must be what the seacocks (ball valves) are for. No other good reason to put valves on drains that exit above the w/l.

Edited to add: other than maybe to slow the demise of an already-sinking yacht?

My cockpit drain seacocks are very stiff - I've tried to exercise them but I'm afraid to use too much force and perhaps break the handles off. (Yes, I do know which direction they need to be turned)
They are the newer Marlon type (installed about 10 years ago?) - anyone know what sort of penetrating spray I can aim at them to encourage release? Thanks!
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
My cockpit drain seacocks are very stiff - I've tried to exercise them but I'm afraid to use too much force and perhaps break the handles off. (Yes, I do know which direction they need to be turned)
They are the newer Marlon type (installed about 10 years ago?) - anyone know what sort of penetrating spray I can aim at them to encourage release? Thanks!

The current Forespar model, in use since the 90's, should have four screws on the top plate that you can *carefully* loosen, an eighth at a time. I am referring to the "93" series. This will allow the ball to rotate a bit easier. This may help. Hopefully.
 

bgary

Advanced Beginner
Blogs Author
MareLube

what sort of penetrating spray

I'm not aware of a spray... but Lewmar makes a lube specifically for Marelon thru-hulls called MareLube

https://www.fisheriessupply.com/sitesearch.aspx?keyword=marelube&sitesearch=true

It comes as a paste or a liquid. You can pour a bit of the liquid into the top of a (closed) thru-hull.... or you can brush a bit of the paste onto the top of the ball. Then (once the hose is re-installed) working the valve will spread the lube around.

I applied a bit of the paste with a small brush to the top of the ball when I replaced the hose for my sink-drain a few months back. Noticeable difference. I had thought about having the diver take a brush-full of the goo when he next cleaned the bottom, so that I could get some on the underside of the ball, but... it doesn't seem necessary at this point. Maybe next haul-out.

Note, they also make a MareLube "lube kit", which is a pre-loaded syringe with a bit of tubing for those places that are hard to get into.

$.02
Bruce
 

nquigley

Sustaining Member
The current Forespar model, in use since the 90's, should have four screws on the top plate that you can *carefully* loosen, an eighth at a time. I am referring to the "93" series. This will allow the ball to rotate a bit easier. This may help. Hopefully.

These are the units I have:
https://www.forespar.com/product541.html
(link is for photo purposes only - mine may not be the same internal diameter as at this link)
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
The good and the Bad

These are the units I have:
https://www.forespar.com/product541.html
(link is for photo purposes only - mine may not be the same internal diameter as at this link)

Ah So. Those are the original patented models from when Forespar bought the rights from the Australian company - RC Marine - in the late 80's. They still catalog them and, other than the problem of the ball material being hydroscopic and slightly expanding and binding over the years, they are OK.
I do wonder why in the name of Poseidon they have not been able to upgrade the ball material in 30 years, though. :confused:

That's what was installed original in our '88 boat.

I still like the fact that I do not have to be concerned with electrolysis, but the valve material is really not optimal.

("Hot" marinas are actually kind of common around the whole NW. Our club has spent $ and labor to constantly upgrade our wiring, but a Lot of commercial marinas have ancient wiring and inadequate breakers.... and then there are the large visiting boats at those marinas that can erode metal fittings on other boats up to 100 feet away... sigh....)
 

Kenneth K

1985 32-3, Puget Sound
Blogs Author
...anyone know what sort of penetrating spray I can aim at them to encourage release? Thanks!

Here's a blog post I did a while back after I broke the handles off 3 old forespar valves.

https://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/entry.php?575-Forespar-MF850-Marelon-Ball-Valves

If the valve handle normally rotates 180 degrees, it is a newer model valve with a thicker post on the ball and can likely withstand some higher torque. If the handle normally rotates only 90 degrees, it is the older type that breaks more easily.

I dont know of any good lube other than the Marlube mentioned, which has to be brushed on. You'd have to be careful to use something safe for both plastic (valve body) and rubber (the o rings that seal against the ball).

On some of the older valves, it's possible to slightly rotate (loosen) the lower nut (hex part of the lower valve body) to relieve some of the force against the ball and o-rings. Newer models had a stainless steel pin inserted through the lower nut, into the valve body, to keep it from rotating.

Only other idea might be to hold a heater or blow dryer near or through the valve to possibly soften the plastic and o-rings a bit.
 
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Touchrain

Member III
It might be more effective to remove the drain plate, put a membrane over the hole, and replace the drain plate.
Indeed. I simply took some black rubber sheets, cut to size, and used existing screws to put in place. Worked for a long rainy period when I was working on stuff below.
 

Bolo

Contributing Partner
In my posting back in 2019 I mentioned that I used rubber plugs for the scuppers. Well, I lost those plugs which forced me to find something else which was aluminum foil I had in the galley. So know I use the same draining procedure (fill the scuppers with antifreeze, drain, then fill again with the sea cock closed) and simply lay some foil over the hole and screw the screen down over it. Worked for me last year and I’ll be doing it again since the boat will be wintering in the water.
 

steven

Sustaining Member
I am in progress getting quotes on a winter-only drain in the cockpit floor to exit through the overhang above the waterline. The drain will have a seacock on the inside (accessible through the lazerette) which will be closed during the sailing season. This way it can be a more or less straight plumb without the need to worry about backflow when heeling. For the existing drains I use a winterizing procedure similar to Bob's. As I've mentioned elsewhere $1(ish) rubber kitchen drain stoppers are available in a size that fits my pipes.. Also btw I've used wooden tapered plugs - the kind you keep around for an emergency.
 
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