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Air in fuel system

jengels

Member II
This entire sailing season, short as it was for us, was marked by a persistent air leak in our boat's fuel system. On several occasions the motor, a Universal 5416, would conk out, sometimes right after starting up or at other times after running for awhile. What we first thought was contaminated fuel turned out to be this leak. Our mechanic has thrown his hands up after tightening every fitting, replacing the fuel line from the tank to the Racor primary filter and pressure testing the system. He could find nothing. This past Wednesday I had to move the boat from our slip over to the boat yard to have it hauled for the winter. Before doing so I turned the key on without starting the engine and went down below to the engine and cracked the bleed nut to release any air that may have be in the line. There was quite a bit. I left it a bit cracked to make sure I could make the short trip to the yard. The boat started right up and ran fine all the way to the dock. Upon reaching the dock I noticed that the bleed nut had blown off and diesel had been spewed all over the aft end of the cabin. Delightful. The mechanics only recommendation is to move the lift pump closer to the tank, maybe before the Racor primary filter to lessen the distance for possible leaks. Is it possible that the lift pump could be the culprit, It looks like original equipment from 1983.
 

JSM

Member III
How old is you Racor system ? I had a similar problem problem develop after changing my Racor filter two years ago. After replacing the thirty year old Racor system with a new one the problem stopped.
 

supersailor

Contributing Partner
I had the same problem several years back. I located it by bypassing each system one at a time. My curiosity made me take the filter apart and I found a crack in the aluminum body of the filter.

At the time, I recommended replacing the filter every 5 to 8 years because it is so critical for the boat's safety. Still recommend it. A dual switchable filter system would be better but I can't find the room for it.
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
This earlier thread has my experiences with a difficult-to-find leak. And nowadays, over a decade later I finally do have the stronger /better designed Racor 500 in place.
https://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?3585-Racor-filter-application

While it can be frustrating to deal with a "vacuum leak" (phrase included just to get Tom's attention!) this really is an area where a patient owner *can* triumph over the problem, and save a bundle of hundred dollar bills that would go to an outside vendor who will have to do all of the same logical and patient trouble shooting. :(

Best of luck to you and do keep us informed of the outcome. Attach some pix if you will -- they are usually helpful.
 
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Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
If the above suggestions don't solve it, I had the same problem you describe and it was my fuel pump, even though the mechanic checked it and declared it good.
I solved the problem by running a temporary fuel line directly from the tank to the fuel pump, and another from the pump into a pail partially filled with diesel fuel. I then ran just the pump, and after a few minutes I could see tiny pinhead size air bubbles in the diesel fuel pail. By eliminating all the filters and running only the pump, the air bubbles had to be coming from the pump, though it held enough pressure to pass the mechanics pressure test.
I replaced the pump and never had this problem again.
Frank
 

Tom Metzger

Sustaining Partner
While it can be frustrating to deal with a "vacuum leak" (phrase included just to get Tom's attention!) this really is an area where a patient owner *can* triumph over the problem, and save a bundle of hundred dollar bills that would go to an outside vendor who will have to do all of the same logical and patient trouble shooting.

Be very careful when dealing with a vacuum leak. While, as Loren points out, it can be frustrating, it can also be dangerous to to breathe the raw vacuum and you don't want to let it come in contact with bare skin. Basically, it sucks.

Damn, I must be getting old. It's almost 50 years since I worked for Consolidated Vacuum Corp/Bell & Howell/Bendix, but I still remember the dangers.
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
I sold vacuums, I don't just talk about them. Kirby Home Sanitation Unit, door to door wearing plaid pants. Value $279 in 1965 dollars. So I know what I'm talking about.

If you have a leak, here is the problem: you have the wrong vacuum.
 

Slick470

Member III
I sold vacuums, I don't just talk about them. Kirby Home Sanitation Unit, door to door wearing plaid pants. Value $279 in 1965 dollars. So I know what I'm talking about.

If you have a leak, here is the problem: you have the wrong vacuum.
My parents still have and love their Kirby. It sounds like a jet taking off, but it works. Thing is a beast.
 

Filkee

Sustaining Member
Kirby

Guy came to my door one night and sacred me so much I called the police. Vacuum seemed nice but...
 

toddster

Curator of Broken Parts
Blogs Author
Some guy showed up at the end of our mud after dirt after gravel driveway, five miles off the nearest pavement, and sold my Mom a complete Electrolux system in about 1970. I give him credit for ever finding the place, much less making the sale, but it was kind of a hopeless application from the beginning. Of course, installing carpet on a dirt farm in lower Elbonia was a pretty hopeless thing from the start...
 

Baslin

Member III
When Installing or mounting electric fuel pumps in the fuel system, they should always be mounted AFTER the primary fuel filter.....You don't want unfiltered fuel running through your lift pumps. Even though some electric lift pumps have an inline filter, they are inadequate to take the blunt of unfiltered fuel from the tank.
 

Tin Kicker

Sustaining Member
Moderator
When Installing or mounting electric fuel pumps in the fuel system, they should always be mounted AFTER the primary fuel filter.....You don't want unfiltered fuel running through your lift pumps. Even though some electric lift pumps have an inline filter, they are inadequate to take the blunt of unfiltered fuel from the tank.

Agree about getting as close to the tank as possible and just want to add that pulling fuel through lines has long been known to be less preferable to pushing it. Air molecules are much smaller than fuel, so the same line can leak air inward while not leaking fuel outward. Pulling fuel to a pump has led to a series of helicopter accidents, because the fuel tanks are typically in the belly and engine on the roof.

Christian, I remember as a kid when a door to door salesman sold my Mom the Electrolux. So you were one of those guys, eh?
:rolleyes:
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
I did it one summer.

We trained with a 300-page manual and ritual chanting. Kirby's target was the infirm, the credulous, the ignorant and the impure of heart. The whole gig was a scam. We introduced as "demonstrators" not legally entitled to sell. If you let us into the house, we stayed for three hours or until cops were called (that was the Kirby briefing). We lured appointments with a "free $20 value silver gift. You cannot buy. All you have to do is listen." We targeted young children ("your child plays on this rug? Here is the filth he breathes." There was a handy demonstration filter sample). We went to the bedroom and vacuumed the mattress. "This is putrefacted body ash, ma'am. It is dead skin. To sleep in your own dead skin is the source of many infections. " Around about 11 p.m.--all demos began at 8 p.m.--the weary householders, man and wife (no demos for wive only: that allows them to say "I have to consult my husband") would be fed up, outraged, and very angry. Ask me to leave? WEll, OK, but now I reveal that in fact I am a sales trainee. If I can sell this machine to you, I am promoted. Therefore I will make the first payment for you right now, $22 in cash. Please help me. But they don't want a Kirby Home Sanitation Unit that can also polish their car. And its sooo expensive, even with the low monthly payments. Now I say: OK, let's do this: I just made the first payment. Use the machine, enjoy it--don;t make any payments yourself, and it will take them six months to repossess the machine if they ever get around to it. I get my sale, you get $22 cash and a free silver gift and the use of the machine. Everybody wins.

Many saw the logic. If they didn't--mind you it;s 11 p.m. and everybody is wondering why they ever let me in the door--I performed a nervous breakdown for them. I was in such trouble. I had to call my supervisor. He asked to speak to the homeowner. "Did he try to sell you a machine?" Well, he sure did. "What! That is illegal!vI'll be there in 10 minutes." So we would wait for Brad. Brad would arrive and chew me out and tell the people because the law was broken, he was legally obliged to give them the Kirby free. Sign this special contract. Brad would write on it, "Christian not a salesman, contract approved by Bradford". And they did. Brad was the best closer I ever saw.

Almost every contract written by Kirby after a demo sale was sold to a collection agency the next day. In almost every case the machine was eventually repossessed and the collection agency went to work. That was the business plan. My commission was $90. If Brad came to close, he took half.

There were 12 of us were on the Kirby demo team in Scotch Plains NJ in the summer of 1964. Most were high school teachers. One was a reverend, elegant black man, who sold one machine per night for 30 days in a row. In August the teachers asked me to a breakfast meeting. This is a scam, they said. I agreed, having just sold a vacuum to a black family with no rugs because they were too polite to kick the white kid out who was trying to earn money for college (my father was a surgeon with a Hinckley sailboat). So we all quit together, most of the sales force.

Not long after the cops closed the operation down, and there were indictments. Not of Brad--he fled the day we quit.

As a newspaper editor later I twice assigned undercover reporters to become Kirby salesmen. Both stories were hilarious and much the same as mine, although with more marijuana (time had changed). Greed of the greedy exploited by the smarter and greedier.

My education continues, but that was a kick start. I don't think that elaborate scam would work today, with Yelp, Twitter and cell phones.

It was easier to sell vacuums in a vacuum.
 

Filkee

Sustaining Member
Turkey Shaped Wicker with Steak Knives

That was the leave behind when the man from Kirby came to my door a dozen years or so ago. I live about a mile and a half past the pavement up a pretty steep hill. I remember he was dropped off and the whole thing was almost like when the creepy guy broke into my house in Santa Monica in the ‘70s. Somehow I got him out and there was the angry manager picking him up. We had a new tool in town called the Front Porch Forum which is kind of a list serve where you can get rid of zucchini or tell people where the bears are getting busy. It took about 48 hours for everyone in town to get wind of it and the Kirby gang quickly moved on.
 

toddster

Curator of Broken Parts
Blogs Author
Three or four years ago, some poor guy showed up in a beat-up pick-up truck with a freezer full of nasty-looking water-injected individually-wrapped frozen utility-grade meats. Can't recall if he was selling subscriptions or bulk packs ("If you buy all this, I'll throw in the freezer!") He just wouldn't give up, but it would have taken a really gifted grifter to sell that stuff. Apparently, my renter got rid of him by sending him to me. ("Well, Todd makes all the decisions on this kind of stuff.")
 

Tom Metzger

Sustaining Partner
Poor guys just trying to make a living in the Vermont or Oregon wilderness, don't'cha know?

I think we should go back and blame Loren for hijacking this thread. :0
 
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