Angle of heel to increase waterline for 35-3...will it help?

We took second in our cruising division on a cross Lake Michigan race of 66 miles in our E-35-3 yesterday. We had a J-35 asym reacher up on a two foot bowsprit. We were doing 7 + knots. Beat all the J-35's in division 2 on corrected time, but a Jenneau Sun Odyssey 40 SD who took third in the whole fleet did us in. Overall, we were 9th in fleet and they were 3rd. A bunch of Farr 40's, 395's and Great Lakes 70's beat us.

We were almost upright the whole crossing, beam reach 15kt winds gust to 20kts flat seas gradually increasing to short steep stern quartering 3-5 ft seas toward the end with us maybe heeling 5 degrees. In the last couple of hours as the seas built, steering became a quite active affair.

Would it have helped our speed if we increased the waterline by heeling more? Would it have increased the waterline by heeling more? Even a 10th of a knot over 66 miles would have make a big difference. Plus, it was our first race in the boat with a young crew who was just learning asym trim.

Doug

Probably not that simple. Hard to know in any case.

A paddlewheel knotmeter can tell relative speeds, sort of, between trims. After the fact its really hard to analyse. Heel makes weather helm, which is a brake.

In those conditions the man on the helm often makes a difference. Playing the waves, moguling the troughs, dodging the lumps, calling for constant traveler trim and spin trim.

And of course a boat that doesn't plane is at mercy of those who do. I don't think the Ericson hull is optimized for that course. Many newer designs have flat runs aft, since buyers of cruising boats nowadays don't want to go to windward anyhow.

the only thing I'm sure of is there's no simple answer.

I've not sailed an E35, so don't really know, but on our E30+ she settles in to an optimum heel when close hauled. The tell tales all look pretty good, but when I take her off the wind another few degrees I can feel her just lean into the sail and pick up that extra quarter of a knot. It's her sweet spot. I don't have an inclinometer, so can't tell you exact degrees of heel, but I'm guessing about 15 degrees.
The E35 may be different, but I'm guessing if you take her out in a good breeze and experiment, you will determine if she has a sweet spot, and what sail trim and heel is needed to keep her there.
Then you'll win all the races!
Let us know how it goes.
Frank

Cinderella, our 35-2 will hit 8 its in that breeze on a beam reach carrying a sail labeled "blast reacher" on flat seas. When I say hit, she will sit right at 7.8-7.9 and ovcassionally I will see 8. That being said, we are heeled pretty hard (30-35 degrees) and there is maybe 2-4" between the aft quarter and the water (she squats pretty hard). I have never tried to carry a chute in that breeze at the that wind angle, but with the sails I have she balances out really well.

Its about the limit I it I would ever be willing to push the boat though, I can see my leeward side rods slacken, and the bow wave will start splashing all over the foredeck, it really is a "blast".

For the record, I played around with sails on our delivery to swiftsure to see whether I should reef and carry more headsail vs more main and less headsail and determined that a smaller headsail and full main kept the boat more upright and pointing higher. I saw about a kt of speed gain. That "more upright" was about 25-30 degrees. Granted we were going to windward up the Puget Sound and admiralty inlet, so we were sailing as close hauled as possible.

I dont know how you could keep the boat so flat on a beam reach in that wind, but then again I don't have an asym.

Taking the boat out and playing with your sails on different angles to get your vmgs is probably the most valuable next step if you are racing in that capacity. i had hoped to prior to swiftsure, but boat work took precedence :/

i have a feeling that that our design is a little better for windward work, the planing boats would be very hard to compete with in the conditions you described.

I have an express 34 rig in Cinderella, so I'm not sure if that makes much of a difference.

Do you have any photos of your sprit setup? I was thinking about setting one up on Cinderella, I think it would be much easier to manage cruising short handed.

cheers,
-P

Doug177 said:

Would it have helped our speed if we increased the waterline by heeling more?

Click to expand...

Maybe.

In general, more waterline is better *if* it is "working waterline". In other words, if the quarter-wake is all the way aft and the aft quarter of the boat is immersed/involved in lengthening the wave train, then, yes, it's helping.

But there are trade-offs. The more the boat heels, the less efficient your keel is, and the less effective sail area is exposed to the driving force of the wind. Plus the assymmetry of the immersed hull shape as you heel contributes to weather helm, which can increase drag.

"in general", heeling past about 20-25 degrees starts to get toward the wrong side of the tradeoffs. I don't know the 35-3 well enough to know whether the transom gets involved at that angle or not.

$.02

More is better.... up to a point

I'd agree with all said here as it matches my experience with my 35-II. In all wave conditions, I seem to have a sweat spot of heel at about 15-20deg. 20-25deg in flatter water and I can squeeze some more out of her; but not in waves. Heel beyond that and I get a lot of weather helm as the main gets relatively more efficient than the genoa and the traveler can not compensate and I have to de-power (could be my sail cut).

Brad

On my 38 which is similar to the 35-3 I would guess that flatter is better

In 20 knots with the chute up not much difference between a little bit of heal and a wipe out

As you can see from the attached pics once in the 7-8 knot range of boat speed extra heal does not add a lot of waterline

Upwind if you have more than 5 degrees of weather helm you need the boat flatter as a general rule

Off the wind weather helm can kill you. makes it hard to go low and adds drag

Actually my 35-2 may not be a great comparison.

____ LOA|LWL|LWL/LOA
35-2 | 35 | 25 | 0.71
35-3 | 35 | 28 | 0.80
38__ | 38 | 31 | 0.81

The heeling to get longer effective LWL may be something that's more beneficial for the 35-2 but not as much as the 35-3 and 38. Would be great to compare the polars of these boat, but alas.........

Increasing angle of heel

I too, do not know the specific, best angle of heel for an E 35-3. But, in IMHO, my experience has been that more waterline means a faster boat. However, washing the rails creates more friction and weather helm and that results in a slower boat.

Polonius
E-28