I have about 1/4"-3/8" lateral play in the bottom of my rudder shaft ('87 E34). Any opinions on whether or not I need to fix this ASAP, or can I let it go for a couple years......or until I sell it. Also I am looking at replacing the teak and holly sole, but cannot find the 5/8" plywood; it's either 1/2", or 3/4". Any opinion on if which I should go with?? Thanks for you time folks!!!
rudder shaft wiggle and cabin sole replacement
- Thread starter hdlEric
- Start date
Tom Metzger
Sustaining Partner
The sole on my 87 E-34 is 3/4", if that helps. I bought it from Condon's in White Plains,NY. http://www.condonlumber.net/
I have seen T&H plywood for sale in 1/4". But that was a few years ago. If you find it in that thickness, it's pretty easy to epoxy it to a sufficient thickness of marine ply to get the total that you need.
teak and holly sole and rudder post wiggle
Tom and Loren thanks both for the input. Tom, does the plywood stick up higher than the fiberglass pieces it adjoins.....I guess the technical woodworking term is "proud" of the adjoining fiberglass?
Also, do either of you have any input re the rudder post having lateral play of about 1/4"; ie, do I need to fix it soon, and what do I do?
Thanks again!!!!
Tom and Loren thanks both for the input. Tom, does the plywood stick up higher than the fiberglass pieces it adjoins.....I guess the technical woodworking term is "proud" of the adjoining fiberglass?
Also, do either of you have any input re the rudder post having lateral play of about 1/4"; ie, do I need to fix it soon, and what do I do?
Thanks again!!!!
Tom Metzger
Sustaining Partner
Proud is a nice word. I looked at lots of pix and can honestly say I dunno. Who takes pix at floor level?
This is the best pic I could find. It's the edge of the galley, under the sink:
I suspect there may be a shadow on the fiberglass indicating the T & H sits proud.. The pic was taken to show the ice in the bilge (upper left) in January 2011. The white specs on the sole are snow. I mention that for those of you in SoCal who have never seen it.
I put adhesive foam weather seal under the sole at the edges and sill seal on the grid to eliminate squeaking. Originally there was glop under the sole... 5200, or something stronger. This adds some height to the sole.
Rudder bearing
Two popular fixes: West System has instructions for injecting an epoxy-silica-graphite mix into the shaft log, and placing shims.
Both are discussed in this thread, among others:
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?1737-E38-200-Rudder-removal-bushing-replacement
Clunking in the steering while sailing is bad, but a little play noticed when grabbing the rudder on the hard is livable if you don't feel it under way.
Also check the top bearing under the cockpit deck. It comes loose, is easy to tighten, and can feel like lots of bad things.
Two popular fixes: West System has instructions for injecting an epoxy-silica-graphite mix into the shaft log, and placing shims.
Both are discussed in this thread, among others:
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?1737-E38-200-Rudder-removal-bushing-replacement
Clunking in the steering while sailing is bad, but a little play noticed when grabbing the rudder on the hard is livable if you don't feel it under way.
Also check the top bearing under the cockpit deck. It comes loose, is easy to tighten, and can feel like lots of bad things.
Alan Gomes
Sustaining Partner
The WestSystem epoxy fix is a bit scary if something goes sideways. There was a guy on the east coast who did it on his Catalina 30 and, it appears, failed to adequately prep the rudder post with the release agent so it would release from the epoxy. He actually glued his rudder in place! :0 With the help of a friend of mine, who designed a tool that allowed him to put a large amount of torque on the rudder post without flexing the rudder from side to side, he eventually managed to break it free but not without a lot of serious agony. If you were to do this fix, make darn sure you prep that shaft so it will release without any doubt. But more to the, point, I don't think the WestSystem fix really makes much sense anyway. For a rudder post that is simply coming up through a fiberglass rudder tube, the post only bears on the bottom (where it exits the hull) and the top of the tube. Pumping epoxy into the tube will only add friction to the center portion of the tube to no good purpose.
In fact, when I replaced the rudder on my E26 (due to a bent rudder post from the P.O.), I had Foss turn the center of the shaft on a lathe to relieve slightly the diameter of the post's center portion in order to make sure there would be no friction against the center portion of the fiberglass tube. (The amount of material removed was not huge, and at any rate I went with a larger than normal wall thickness on the new rudder post, so it's still quite a bit sturdier than the original one.)
So what you need to do is eliminate the play at the top and bottom. This can be accomplished by shims. Some suggest mylar shims, but I used stainless steel shims I obtained from McMaster-Carr. Because they come in a variety of thicknesses, I was able to dial in the exact thickness I wanted and eliminate the play without adding unwanted friction. I figured out the thicknesses I wanted through trial and error--thicker in the bottom than on top, as it turned out. For the final step I dropped the rudder, greased the rudder post, and then reinstalled the rudder with the shims in place top and bottom. It still works great. At my haul out in June I'll go ahead and drop the rudder to give it a fresh coat of Teflon grease, reinsert it, and call it good.
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Alan Gomes
Sustaining Partner
West System rudder post horror story
I've attached a thread from the Moyer forum that describes the ordeal I mentioned in my previous post re: using the WestSystem fix for removing play in the rudder tube. It was sent to me as a PDF by my good friend Neil Dutton, the guy who bailed out Russell, the poor hapless fellow who glued his rudder post in place. Note that the latest posts are on top, so you need to read it from the bottom. This is an interesting read.
View attachment Russell's rudder thread.pdf
I've attached a thread from the Moyer forum that describes the ordeal I mentioned in my previous post re: using the WestSystem fix for removing play in the rudder tube. It was sent to me as a PDF by my good friend Neil Dutton, the guy who bailed out Russell, the poor hapless fellow who glued his rudder post in place. Note that the latest posts are on top, so you need to read it from the bottom. This is an interesting read.
View attachment Russell's rudder thread.pdf
HerbertFriedman
Member III
Alan, could you provide some detail as to how you placed the shim between the rudder tube and the bearing so they would stay in place?
Alan Gomes
Sustaining Partner
Herb,
I was searching my computer for a picture of the shim--I know I've got one somewhere--when my friend Neil, who is now monitoring this thread, created and e-mailed me a drawing! How's that for service! (And he doesn't even own an Ericson....)
And yes, the way Neil drew it is the way I did it. As I recall, we did use a little bit of silicone to keep the bottom one in place while we hoisted the rudder up the tube. There is also a washer in between the top of the rudder blade and the bottom of the hull. At any rate, there is no place for the shim to go.
View attachment Rudder post shim.pdf
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thanks
Thanks Christian for the info, I will check the top rudder bearing. Howard
Thanks Christian for the info, I will check the top rudder bearing. Howard
thanks
thanks Tom for the pic. I laid a piece of 3/4" plywood down, and it's flush with the adjoining fiberglass. Howard
thanks Tom for the pic. I laid a piece of 3/4" plywood down, and it's flush with the adjoining fiberglass. Howard