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E-29 Sail Plan Questions

Thursty30

Member II
I just bought 74 E 29 this winter, I have a long list of projects that only seems to get longer. I've been a long time lurker, but I have a feeling I am about to become a serial poster, as I have an extensive re-fit planned on an expedited timeline to achieve some pretty lofty goals. The first major purchase is to up-date the sail locker. I have already landed on Mack sails as the loft after lots of on-line research & going to the boat show for some hand on & face to face.

Plans - Coastal/Caribbean extended cruising, with the very real potential to attempt an Atlantic crossing. I want a sail plan that will accommodate a crossing, I plan to purchase the sails in phases.

Looking for advice from people who have experience sailing a E29, to make sure that I am putting the right canvas in the locker for this particular boat.

Immediately, I need a main in order to sail this summer. My only question here is that a lot of the folks I have talked to have said "get a deep 3rd reef, and don't let the maker talk you out of it" which in theory I agree with, but when the sail maker says "not necessary" to extra money, it gives me pause. I understand this is not a "large sail" that would typically be associated with a 3rd reef point, but with most of my sailing being single handed, I like the idea of not needing to hank on a try-sail in inevitable heavy winds experienced while cruising. Any one done this? wish they'd done it? wish they hadn't?

At the same time I am leaning towards a 130 for my furling head sail, and then later down the line adding an asym and probably a 100. If you could only have 2 head sails+storm jib, what would they be? Would you be comfortable in most situations with a 130 that you could reef down 20% + storm + asym?

Thanks in advance for any input. From what I have read this is an extremely helpful and knowledgeable owners group, looking forward to learning from you all.
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Many views on all this.

I believe in a third reef in the main. You'll have self-steering, and it sometimes helps balance the rig. Often though a deeply furled headsail alone is plenty on our boats.

A 130 sounds fine if it is new and has a foam luff. Smaller even better, if you will carry an asym. Cruising shorthanded is not racing. In passage making, changing sails to get an extra knot is something to do when bored.

With roller furling, it is difficult to do anyhow. With hanks, you could just drop the old sail and bag it. It is no fun taking off a 130 to put on a 90 as the wind is coming up. For me, one headsail (I have a 120) makes do.

It all sounds important, but in the end it's not. All sorts of plans work. Buy fewer sails, not more.

"Racing" and the general idea "fast" and "latest" dominate sail considerations today. To cross the Atlantic in a small boat none of them apply.
 

Thursty30

Member II
Many views on all this.

I believe in a third reef in the main. You'll have self-steering, and it sometimes helps balance the rig. Often though a deeply furled headsail alone is plenty on our boats.

A 130 sounds fine if it is new and has a foam luff. Smaller even better, if you will carry an asym. Cruising shorthanded is not racing. In passage making, changing sails to get an extra knot is something to do when bored.

With roller furling, it is difficult to do anyhow. With hanks, you could just drop the old sail and bag it. It is no fun taking off a 130 to put on a 90 as the wind is coming up. For me, one headsail (I have a 120) makes do.

It all sounds important, but in the end it's not. All sorts of plans work. Buy fewer sails, not more.

"Racing" and the general idea "fast" and "latest" dominate sail considerations today. To cross the Atlantic in a small boat none of them apply.

Well said, and not only because I agree with just about everything you said.:cheers: My main concern was balancing the helm on this particular boat having never sailed one, for my sake and the self steering. It's a investment/decision Ill have to live with for a while, which Is the only reason I am questioning my instinct. Nice when a response re-affirms my theory though, makes pulling the trigger a little easier.

Thanks
 

Joliba

1988 E38-200 Contributing Member
I strongly agree with the advice to have a deep 3rd reef in the mainsail. Though I have no experience with the E29, I have cruised long distances short handed on 27' and 30' boats of similar type for many years. I would also request that the sailmaker include extra reinforcement at the 3rd reef (e.g. Chafe gear, extra panels at the leech grommet, triple stitching, etc.) This is not because of any extra load while sailing. However, at some point in heavier wind while under the 3rd reef, something unexpected will occur. A fitting for the main sheet may lose a pin, the windvane or autohelm may hiccup, a jib sheet may become fouled during a tack, or one of a thousand unforeseen events may cause the main to luff and flog heavily for 30 seconds...or 5 minutes. You may be asleep below when it happens. This is not the time you want the stitching to fail in the upper portion of your only mainsail.
Your voyaging plans sound wonderful. Good luck!

Mike Jacker
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Great voyager. He added a new word to English, "trafficated," denoting the experience of being stuck in traffic.

In turn, I have adopted one of his Norwegian electronic terms to my lexicon:

Horizon fartsmåler.
 

Joliba

1988 E38-200 Contributing Member
Norwegian is a very colorful and expressive language....
But isn't that a function that may be accomplished without electronics?
 

Thursty30

Member II
Christian & Loren -

As it were one of the threads on this site led me to trafficated, and I ended up trading a few e-mails with him after reading through his blog. Some about the specifics of long term cruising on an E29 before I bought mine, more about the cruising lifestyle in general.

"If you are going down this road budget is probably part of it so I can add that outfitting too much is easy to do. Don't fall into that trap." That's probably the piece of advice I have tried to heed most from him, and mirrors the underlying theory of what you guys are saying.

Mike -

Thanks for the insight and advice. One of the things that drew me to Mack sails was the amount extra reinforcement that they consider standard compared to the some of my local lofts. Ill look forward to more of your experience short handed cruising on similar boats.
 

frick

Member III
At 15 Year E29 Owner talks about sails

I replaced my main a few years ago. When with a Coastal Cursing Dacron Doyle. Love it...

As to the third Reef.... If I need more than two reefs point I take the main down. The Boat Sails very well with small jib alone.

As to a Jib... I use a 130 % Genoa on a Roller Furler. A Nice size.

I also have a symmetrical Spinnaker, in a Sock. I can put it up single handed on a nice day.

Here is what I have found... The sweet spot for speed is about 15 to 17 degrees of heel.
More than 17 and my boat starts to slow down. This has to do with the overhang which when heeled grows the water line length... ( an old MORC rule beating trick).

I also knew a Great Lakes E29 Skipper who put on a removeable baby forestay for a stay sail. He mounted a deck ring with extra tie ins to the hull forward to the Vee Birth Bulkhead. to take the load. When he was not using it... It was fixed to the base of the mast. this was good for big weather.

Rick+
 

toddster

Curator of Broken Parts
Blogs Author
Since I was a noob, I just asked the sailmaker to tell me what I need. None of the old sails was usable, except the very tired main.
I started with a new main (2 reefs, though I couldn't tell you the percentages right now without going to the boat to measure.) and a 135% roller-furled genoa.
This covers most wind from 10 - 30 knots. New sails made an enormous difference. Even though I probably still have a lot to learn about sail trim. (Just learned Saturday what the luff-line is for!)

Now it's been enough years to start looking to expand. I'm feeling more need for light-air sails than for heavy-weather sails at this point. I picked up a (hardly) used spinnaker from CL that fits the hardware - pretty difficult to deploy single handed in narrow water. So far, it's not much use. I'm feeling some lust in my heart for a roller-furled asymmetric on a sprit.

As far as heavy weather, so far I avoid it. But just last weekend, I attended a seminar where "the experts" were pretty emphatic about "You Must Have" two relatively deep reefs in the main, then switch to a storm jib on an inner forestay and a storm trysail. One of the reasons given was that the hardware of the regular sails - particularly the furling drum, and maybe the reefing lines - cannot bear the chafe and loads of a real storm, and could fail with disastrous consequences. (This also destroys my vague plan for cutting storm sails from parts of my old sails.) I'm currently leaning toward this philosophy, partly because of the recent reinforcement. But also a storm jib on an inner forestay gives you a convenient option for sheet-to-tiller self-steering. I've heard from someone else that the trysail improved his motor-sailing comfort and performance, though I'm not sure that I entirely understood his point.

If nobody has mentioned it, the classic downwind trade wind cruising rig is two identical headsails slotted into the two grooves of a roller-furler. Though it doesn't seem to be very handy for anything except crossing oceans, so not high up on my priority list.

Lastly, I very much enjoyed reading through "Trafficated," (though the videos do not play for me) but he admits that his only storm strategy was to douse the sails, close up the hatches, and bob around like a derelict until it was over with. Which sort of worked, in so far as that he didn't die. But I don't think I'd be looking there for tactics advice.
 
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toddster

Curator of Broken Parts
Blogs Author
I like the idea of not needing to hank on a try-sail in inevitable heavy winds experienced while cruising. Any one done this? wish they'd done it? wish they hadn't?

I should first point out that I have not done this. But from my reading and attending seminars, I understand that the way it's done is to mount a second track on the mast that goes all the way to the base. Before you depart on a crossing, the trysail is bent-on and bagged, with its sheets, at the base of the mast. To deploy, all you do is secure and lash the main, move the halyard over and hoist away. So really, no more steps than putting in a reef.
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
When it is no longer possible to sail with a 3rd reef or a scrap of jib, I plan to stream a series drogue. I may try a sea anchor first (they work or not, depending).

But Ryan Levinson is sailing his 38 all over the place using a trysail under quite moderate conditions. He is glad he has it.

Personally, I am not sailing seasonal passages with all that junk hanging on the mast as if it were the roaring '40s.

And in a full gale nobody is sailing at all.
 

Thursty30

Member II
Frick - Glad I went with my gut, and ordered the 130, thanks for the input. I was hoping an experienced E-29 skipper would pass some hard earned knowledge. I was planning on installing a second forestay "Bamar Rollgen Evo 08 with furling line and lead block kit" per Mack in a few months when I order my Asym. I Imagine something could be worked out with that fairly easily where I could have my storm sail ready to deploy as opposed to the asym if I knew weather was heading in.

Toddster - Right wrong or indifferent, I share a mindset with christian and trafficated, If I cant sail with what I have on board, then I wont. The fact that the boat sails well with just a Jib makes me feel pretty good about that 3rd reef, just one more sail option with out the additional gear on my mast whether or not I use it. 3rd reef+130 genoa+strom Jib+asym=seems to cover most sail-able wind. If you decide to go with your heart, I can tell you what Mack quoted me for a new Asym and the roller furling system.
 

toddster

Curator of Broken Parts
Blogs Author
Considerations for adding a removable inner forestay:

The obvious place to anchor one is at the forward bulkhead. However, there isn't much to that bulkhead - it's just part of the liner. So I'd want to add a little more beef in there, like a "rafter" or knee glassed in to bond the bulkhead, deck, and hull. The mast-end of the stay... looks like it would intersect my radome (at the steaming light weldment). More thinking required...

And are running backstays required? It's hard to imagine that phone-pole of a mast bending, but they are part of the formula. Might need an engineer to answer that one. If so, how would they be rigged? Line to a primary winch?

I think you may need to take in a book or two on storm tactics. Christian advocates laying to a drag device like a drogue or sea anchor. Kjell just drifted - which puts the boat beam to the waves - or up on the rocks of a lee shore. A pretty dangerous idea. Storm sails may also be used to heave-to, in conjunction with a sea anchor. However, each boat and sail combination heaves to a bit differently so I'm not sure how our boats would handle it in big wind. But basically the drag device would be an extension of your "sail plan."

So far, I've picked up a Fiorentino sea anchor, and a good stout bridle to deploy it from. (Lots of different opinions on drag devices.) Not planning to be near a hurricane, but our coast is a rocky lee shore with few harbors. And all of the harbor entrances can close in moderately strong weather. The primary plan is to avoid being out there in those conditions, and plan to arrive at the bar during the correct tide. But I also want backup options. Here again, the E29 needs some modification - the supplied deck cleats are small and have inadequate backing. Mine just had 1/2" washers backing them against a rotten deck! IIRC, the JSD people recommend something like horizontal chain plates installed aft, to secure a bridle.

I am all for starting a fresh thread on how/what to modify on the E29 for "blue-water conditions." I have a long list...
 
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Thursty30

Member II
Considerations for adding a removable inner forestay:

The obvious place to anchor one is at the forward bulkhead. However, there isn't much to that bulkhead - it's just part of the liner. So I'd want to add a little more beef in there, like a "rafter" or knee glassed in to bond the bulkhead, deck, and hull. The mast-end of the stay... looks like it would intersect my radome (at the steaming light weldment). More thinking required...

And are running backstays required? It's hard to imagine that phone-pole of a mast bending, but they are part of the formula. Might need an engineer to answer that one. If so, how would they be rigged? Line to a primary winch?

I think you may need to take in a book or two on storm tactics. Christian advocates laying to a drag device like a drogue or sea anchor. Kjell just drifted - which puts the boat beam to the waves - or up on the rocks of a lee shore. A pretty dangerous idea. Storm sails may also be used to heave-to, in conjunction with a sea anchor. However, each boat and sail combination heaves to a bit differently so I'm not sure how our boats would handle it in big wind. But basically the drag device would be an extension of your "sail plan."

So far, I've picked up a Fiorentino sea anchor, and a good stout bridle to deploy it from. (Lots of different opinions on drag devices.) Not planning to be near a hurricane, but our coast is a rocky lee shore with few harbors. And all of the harbor entrances can close in moderately strong weather. The primary plan is to avoid being out there in those conditions, and plan to arrive at the bar during the correct tide. But I also want backup options. Here again, the E29 needs some modification - the supplied deck cleats are small and have inadequate backing. Mine just had 1/2" washers backing them against a rotten deck! IIRC, the JSD people recommend something like horizontal chain plates installed aft, to secure a bridle.

I am all for starting a fresh thread on how/what to modify on the E29 for "blue-water conditions." I have a long list...

I would definitely engage a rigger to help me engineer a second fore-stay before I went through with it. I wonder if one of those self furling asym set ups, on a bowsprit, removable or not, with a storm sail that I could hank on over the furled jib would be a more efficient set up if I am going to go to the trouble of adding a fore-stay.

In regard to storm techniques, Skip Novak advocates against drogues/sea anchors (other than as a last resort) for many reasons. Not the least of which, as you noted, is the issue of deck hardware not being designed to accept that load. I am far from finished learning, and as with most things the real truth lies some where in the middle of the polarized dissenting opinions, and is best discovered through personal experience. Too bad we're half a continent away, or we could go experiment together! No one can argue with your primary plan of avoiding the heavy weather to the extent possible and having a contingency at hand though.

I'll start a new thread with a more general theme centered around making an E29 seagoing. I would be very interested in the rest of your list as well as what you would prioritize because I have started my list with a lot of ideas from similar threads on this site. I will warn you, I am a bit of a minimalist by nature.
 
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