Electronics Upgrades

One of the next projects I'll be undertaking is updating the electronics package on my 30+. Leela is currently outfit with a basic package reminiscent of times past but are now showing their age.
She's currently kitted out with:

• Raymarine ST4000+ Wheel Pilot
• Raymarine ST40 Bidata Depth/Speed Display & accompanying transducers
• Lowrance 5300c GPS (a true POS), I've been using an iPad with Navionics as my chartplotter which fails to work well when wet, and shuts itself off when it's too hot

I want to replace everything and update the system to one that can work together, including adding wind speed and radar. There's a lot of options to choose from and a few manufacturers to pick from too. The project goals are to have a system suited for a boat that does coastal cruising including future 'limited offshore', such as the west coast of Vancouver Island (where radar would be handy.) Safety and reliable are the utmost priority, while still being cost effective.

Looking for suggestions, such as what manufacturer (and why) and products to look into. Ideally I'd like a system designed to work together as a package, even if that means replacing the current wheel pilot. Garmin looks very interesting with their offerings, and seems simpler than Raymarine. Wireless is tempting, but the mast is likely to come out to mount the radar (not a fan of pole mounts, and reluctant to clutter up the stern any more.)

Some thoughts

Hi bolbmw,

I am in the process of doing the same upgrade as you, but I am further ahead and probably started from a different point. I'm only daysailing now, hope to do more cruising and probably won't be doing any offshore work but want my system to be capable of upgrade to it.

Let me start by saying the more details you can figure out for you: what instruments you want, the logistics of where and how you will be using them, where you want to mount them, etc. the happier you will be in the end regardless of the manufacturer. What functions don't you use, what do you miss, do you want it all displayed at the wheel, or at the nav station, or both? When I singlehand, I often sit forward of the wheel, near the main traveler on the bridge deck and my primary winches, with the autopilot steering. I realized I need my chartplotter display (which also displays speed and depth) and my autopilot display to rotate 180 degrees so I can see them from ahead of the wheel.

I started with original Signet Wind, Speed and Depth instruments mounted on the bulkhead. The masthead wind vane was wound up with fishing line but before I could figure that out my rigger pulled the mast cable to it and threw it away. The speedo only lasted a week or two before it went AWOL. Luckily, the depth kept working. It's really the only instrument I needed for daysailing. I hate the bulkhead display position. Someone is always sitting in this prime spot blocking the displays, usually on both sides so I decided not to mount my new displays there. I like having a display at the wheel, but not in a position so high to block your view while standing or so wide to block your view while sitting. I mostly hand steer sitting far outboard behind the wheel (48 inch wheel), so having speed and depth visible while sitting outboard behind the wheel was also a requirement for me.

I also had a black and white Garmin GPSMap 210, 5 inch stand alone chart plotter mounted at the wheel and an Autohelm (pre Raymarine), b&w radar display in a pod at the wheel with the radome on a stern pole. Lastly, the boat had a (very nice) Autohelm ST7000 under deck autopilot with the display near the wheel.

I decided to go with a Furuno system. I wanted a system that was networked and also supported for upgrades over as long a period as possible. Garmin wasn't yet fully in the market and I had heard good and bad stories about Raymarine. I have the FI-50 instruments and an MFD8 chartplotter/multifunction display. The FI-50 has a wind specific display and a 3 line display that displays all the speed, depth, wind functions. I have the wind display in a starboard pod at the wheel with the autopilot display. This rotates 180 degrees so it's visible forward of the wheel. The MFD8 will display all the network functions as well as act as an AIS and radar display. It's going in a port pod at the wheel that also rotates 180 degrees. I have not yet upgraded my radar because I rarely use it, so it's display will move temporarily inside to the nav station. It will go away if I ever get a new radar transmitter on the stern pole. I can see both pods from aft of the wheel while sitting but the E36RH has a nice little section of the cockpit coaming facing aft on each side. right near the wheel that's perfect for a display. I bought a second 3 line display and mounted one on each side. These are right in front of me so I can operate the buttons while steering and nobody can block my view. The old Garmin got moved to the nav station and stopped working shortly after.

I haven't had any issues with the Autohelm ST7000 autopilot. I haven't interfaced it to the MFD8 yet but the MFD8 can handle NEMA 0183 for it and NEMA 2000 for other stuff. I highly recommend a beefy, underdeck autopilot if you are planning any extended cruising.

My next addition will be AIS. I haven't decided if I will go with a Furuno unit for this. The Furuno AIS is much more expensive than others. The other Furuno stuff I have hasn't been too expensive if bought on sale or with Furuno rebates.

My only current question is: do I want another MFD at the nav station or just a smaller, much cheaper, data display with no plotter/radar/AIS? Without the second MFD at the nav station, all these functions have to be done outside at the wheel.

Mark

Definitely agree with mapping out what you want out of the system and finding something that matches your requirements, I have a laundry list of 'features' that I'm looking for. Garmin has a nifty app for their chart plotters which can turn your iPad into a display, which if I went down that route I would definitely try out to have another portable MFD onboard. No idea how well it works if I go that way however.

The current wheel pilot works well in all conditions except for running in stronger winds (25)+ in a seaway. It can't keep up, although I'm not sure if that's a function of power or the motion of the boat. Close hauled in 30+ with balanced sail trim it has no problem whatsoever. My motivation for something below decks would be for the conditions it's currently bad at, and, to have something quieter! The sound of the autopilot is about the only thing interrupting a peaceful day on the water at this point.

Currently I have everything mounted at the helm which has worked quite well and doesn't block any view. I mostly sit in front of the helm when single handing as well and may consider putting the display on a swivel so I can see it from that position. Generally speaking I don't need the display at close hand, but having depth and speed readily available would be very nice. Maybe a couple of instrument displays on the mast is another option, they work pretty well on the raceboats if the display is large enough, I want to keep the bulkheads clean if possible.

Are you considering an AIS receiver only? My understanding is that the commercial ships only monitor other ships with commercial AIS and largely ignore recreational craft. I will probably go that direction myself and only get a receiver, so that I can set alarms and be responsible for myself versus having someone else see me.

bolbmw,

Sounds like you are well on your way to getting the best layout for you.

I started out really trying to avoid using pods at the wheel because they are so expensive and the one for the MFD8 requires significantly more space than just the unit itself. After realizing I needed to see the displays from both forward and aft of the wheel, I conceded they were the best way to go. They also look cleaner and protect the connections and wiring from the elements.

I'm not a laptop or ipad navigation/display user but I can see the flexibility in using one, particularly if you already have one onboard for other reasons. The biggest expense in my Furuno equipment was the MFD8, even with a $1000 rebate, so using an alternative is mighty attractive. Also, you are not locked in to a proprietary item that may be harder to keep up to date.

I am planning on a Class B AIS transmitter/receiver when I get one. I just think that I should take advantage of everyone else being able to see me, even if they aren't really looking all the time.

My Autohelm ST-7000 is totally silent. I don't know how old it is but all the components look new because they are out of the weather. It is a very well thought out installation with the linear actuator driving an independent tiller arm attached directly to the rudder stock so that it is completely independent of the wheel steering and pedestal. This gives me a backup steering method other than the emergency tiller. I haven't used the pilot running in any seas over 4-5 feet, it worked ok, but it was busy. I think it's the hull design and boat motion issue for me as well. I haven't had the opportunity to adjust the response to see if that helps yet.

I still have three round, dead Signet displays on the bulkhead that will require a gelcoat fill and repair. I considered putting a new Furuno display in that location for just when I singlehand to save me from having the two pods at the wheel, but the Furuno displays are square and I only need one and I realized I still need the two pods. I would not even consider it if it required any new holes in the bulkhead. The mast displays need to be big to read easily, you need one for each function and a dodger can block your view. You only need one display if you can get at the buttons to toggle through all the info.

Mark

In my opinion, a $400-500 5"-screen chartplotter is the key to instruments. With a shoot-through-the-hull transducer, it gives GPS piloting, waypoints, speed and depth.

All the rest is complication and makes real challenges for where to put it.

Even so, here's what I ordered and am about to install:

Garmin Echomap 74DV (7" chartplotter, about $500 on sale) with fathometer.

Raymarine Evolution wheel pilot (about $1300; for motoring and sailing up to about 15 knots; a pendulum wind vane for long cruises)).

Raymarine (ex Tacktick) wireless wind instrument, about $1200 (experimental; many bad reviews).

I won't set these components up to talk to each other, I have no need for it.

I will build or have made a custom binnacle display box for the three readouts, and run the wires through the binnacle guard tubes.

My AIS is a Vesper display at the nav station below, not slaved to anywhere else. (On deck, eyes work)

On the whole, I find instruments beyond GPS and depth pretty ridiculous for cruising.

There is really no information they provide-- at great expense and calibrated unreliability--that isn't provided by eyes, ears, and experience.

But then, I didn't even listen to myself.

Christian Williams said:

Raymarine Evolution wheel pilot (about $1300; for motoring and sailing up to about 15 knots; a pendulum wind vane for long cruises)).

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Have you ever tried a tiller pilot (to get steering by compass heading) on your wind vane? I've heard it works, but haven't tried it yet.

Shoot-through the hull transducer?

A little off topic - Does the shoot-through the hull transducer maintain the fish finder capabilities? My grands like to fish and we can be a motorboat for that purpose on windless days on the Chesapeake. Finding a spot for live-lining for rock fish is easier with a fish finder.

Yes you can still see virtual fishes

Yes you can still see the little fishes on the screeen. Or if you are lucky big fishes!

Guy

We had an old Signet Marine set of four analog instruments on the boat when we bought it. I sent in everything to be refurbished or, if it couldn't be fixed, replaced. Included knotlog, depthmeter, wind speed indicator and wind angle indicator. Obviously nothing talks to each other or is displayed anywhere else.

Best I can tell, when the boat (newer Beneteau) next to us got hit by lightning on the masthead, we lost the knot log and wind speed indicator. Interesting note, our mast was probably 15' taller and just one slip away. He lost everything and it cost beyond $4500 to replace all the electronics, antennas, cables, etc. The gremlins never got sorted out and the boat was recently sold. I count myself lucky.

I added a stand alone Raymarine electronic compass so I could see heading quickly and easily while racing. In theory it also serves as a backup to my binnacle. It is solar powered and detachable, so it gets stowed down below when not used.

I use our apparent wind indicator quite often in lieu of looking up at the windex. It allows me to put a more accurate number on apparent wind, but it is only a check. Finally adjustments are based on actual sail trim.

Our chartplotter is an iPad running iNavx. We actually have two, one is an older generation iPad as a spare. It has the ability to overlay our Vesper AIS if needed. Both iPads are contained in Lifeproof waterproof cases and have proven to be excellent chartplotters. Carry it down below, or over to a more comfortable spot in the cockpit for scrolling or plotting new routes. It is clamped to the binnacle guard for the driver's convenience if desired. Our spare is actually out on a boat delivery right now to New Orleans which it has done numerous times, but usually I am with it.

I have not decided on an auto pilot yet. We've been using our windvane when sailing and I've been considering using a tiller pilot to allow for sailing by compass.

So, to recap: I have no wind speed indicator, no knotlog and nothing is networked together. I figure the amount of time and money I've saved will let us go cruising someday.

We've been on many boats with the absolute latest in B&G $20k+ systems and had things stop working. It is hard to justify that kind of cost in my opinion. The sailing was the same.

Chris

Guy Stevens said:

Yes you can still see the little fishes on the screeen. Or if you are lucky big fishes!

Guy

Click to expand...

Thanks Guy. That's another good reason to ditch the last piece of Data Marine gear on my binnacle. The knot meter and wind instrument were dead and removed when I bought the boat.

Re tillermaster on the vane. Everybody says it works, and theoretically the motor power should be augmented. I know a fellow who carries a tillermaster on deliveries, and tapes it to a spoke of the steering wheel to go straight under power (if wheel-steered boat has no autopilot).

Brian Boschma at Pelagic has thought long and hard about these self-steering applications, and has many interesting ideas:

http://pelagicautopilot.com/

Christian Williams said:

Brian Boschma at Pelagic has thought long and hard about these self-steering applications, and has many interesting ideas:

http://pelagicautopilot.com/

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Thanks for passing that along, I had not heard of this before.

Chris

I was really hopefully with my iPad chartplotter which is also in a LifeProof case, but the touchscreen doesn't work well when wet and if it's in the sun for too long tends to shutdown due to overheating. It's a shame because I really like Navionics, and iNavX. Having an instrument network and using the iPad is extremely tempting because when the technology changes for the chartplotter, you can either simply replace the iPad or get a new app, or, get a standalone dedicated chartplotter since you already have the instruments.

bolbmw said:

I was really hopefully with my iPad chartplotter which is also in a LifeProof case, but the touchscreen doesn't work well when wet and if it's in the sun for too long tends to shutdown due to overheating. It's a shame because I really like Navionics, and iNavX. Having an instrument network and using the iPad is extremely tempting because when the technology changes for the chartplotter, you can either simply replace the iPad or get a new app, or, get a standalone dedicated chartplotter since you already have the instruments.

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I have had the exact same issues. We had some new crew last year come on board and I asked them to hand up the iPad and that it was in the cooler. Got some strange looks.

I agree with everything you wrote. The crazy thing is how quickly the Raymarine's of the world will discontinue/not support a product and move on to the next big thing. We spend way too much money for that to happen. Your instrument network and iPad/chartplotter idea has merit.

For us right now the iPad has way too many features that we like, so we are learning to deal with the heat and rain/spray. It is a work in progress.

Chris

Christian Williams said:

On the whole, I find instruments beyond GPS and depth pretty ridiculous for cruising.

There is really no information they provide-- at great expense and calibrated unreliability--that isn't provided by eyes, ears, and experience.

Click to expand...

I certainly appreciate your feedback as you're someone who's 'been there' and done what most of us only dream about. Did you find AIS suitable piece of mind without radar? With your single handed trip you didn't find yourself wanting more information at times, or redundancy in that information? This I've found to be especially important in being critical when that information disagrees. My chart is telling me this, but my eyes disagree. Am I really where I think I am?

A lot of the modern chartplotters or instrument packages are certainly targeted towards race boats, but I have no need for start lines or the ability to upload a polar... that being said sailing locally what I desire most is wind speed and TWA, in part due to wanting to maximize performance and having targets to meet in boat speed.

When I bought my boat, the only electronics were the original Signet knot meter and depth meter – both in working order. I wanted to upgrade and I got a quote on the works: autohelm, chartplotter and wind/depth/speed instruments. Installed, they wanted $8,500. That seemed a little luxurious to me for a 30-year-old boat and I opted for only the Raymarine Evolution Wheel Autopilot. I mounted a Garmin 78 handheld GPS at the helm and (figuratively) hold a wet index finger into the wind. (Because of the 2.6” screen of my GPS I always study paper charts looking for things to not bonk into that I’d miss on that tiny screen.) This has served me surprisingly well for three seasons but I can’t stop pining over a little more screen space at the helm. Not because I’ve found that it’s necessary. But because I like technology and I want it.

I tried using a 10” Android tablet with Navionics but the tablet I had was just not up to the job. I just can’t imagine buying an iPad instead of a dedicated chart plotter that’s made for the conditions it will face.

I almost pulled the trigger on a Garmin Echomap 54dv and the GT15M-IH in-hull transducer for $600. I couldn’t decide how I was going to mount it at the helm so I delayed the decision. I’m looking forward to seeing the installations talked about in this post. I’m still thinking this is the way to go for me. I just need inspiration for the mounting. I like that I can interface this into my Raymarine autohelm. I’m not sure if I will, but bgary’s catharsis gives me the confidence to try.

I looked at the both the Raymarine wireless wind instruments and the wind/speed/depth instruments but I just can’t bring myself to spending over a thousand bucks for wind instruments. I started making a custom system based on an Arduino (a small inexpensive microcontroller) that will monitor wind speed and direction. But this thing is so versatile that I intend to program it to monitor humidity, barometric pressure, gps track, ais receiving, bilge water depth and even the presence of propane in the cabin. So far, I have $108 in it with about $120 left to spend. Hopefully, I’ll have it ready by next year’s launch. If I get it working satisfactorily, I’ll post the details here.

Bolb,

SoCal has no fog. In Maine, Radar gets important if you have a schedule.

I get weather products via satphone/laptop. Otherwise, a couple of GPS units are all I need for nav.

The Vesper Watchmate works for me. Two-way AIS on a dedicated screen is really marvelous, ships don't sneak up and they have your position, course and speed.

Maine isn't the only state with fog. MA and RI have their share. It can roll in quickly and gps might tell you how to get to the next buoy but radar will tell you how to avoid the barge in front of the next buoy. One of these days I might install a faster heading indicator so I can overlay radar onto MFD chart. AIS receiver is nice to have but basically a gadget unless you often sail in shipping lanes. Depth sounder is the only mandatory instrument for me. There are a LOT of rocks in NE. I have a thru hull unit, a shoot thru the hull unit, and there's another xdcr in the basement I keep threatening to install when both the prior instruments refuse to work. (Well the GPS says I should be in 35' of water ....)

I have 4 GPS units. 1 garmin at the binnacle, 1 garmin handheld in the ditch bag, 1 IPAD Mini with Navionics at the binnacle, 1 iphone with Navionics. (There's a Maptech chartbook somewhere below) I like the Garmin when cruising, but it is impossible to add routes or waypoints on the fly or quickly move around the chart to see whats up ahead. Ipad is touchscreen so I can create a new route or drag one around if I decide to head for another harbor in case of weather. Navionics is a pleasure to use. I presume new touchscreen Garmin's will do the same thing but probably more costly than my $200 ipad mini. And if mine heads south I will borrow my wife's if she isn't buried in a good ebook.

It would be nice to have everything networked together via 0183 or 2000 but manufacturers have added proprietary sentences so even if you add a multiplexer to deal with the different nema speeds the gadgets still may not play well together. I would probably go single manufacturer to the max extent possible if networking is a goal. I'm happy with redundancy and if something gets cranky I just unplug it.

I have an older Autohelm 4000+ that refuses to steer a steady course in any seaway over 1'. Some weekend I will install an Evo and then convince my wife I just repainted the old one.

Regarding GPS, I have a Garmin GPSMap 78SC at the helm, and at the nav station I have an old Lenovo laptop running OpenCPN (you knew OpenCPN had to come up in this thread right?). Anyway, the Lenovo display is better at the nav station that any chart plotter I can afford. The NOAA charts are free, and The USB GPS puck is cheap and works great below decks (USGlobalSat BU353-S4 USB GPS Receiver). I have an EV-100 Autopilot and that was a great purchase.

It is easy to transfer tracks etc. between OpenCPN and the Garmin. I am looking for a USB AIS receiver to add in the mix, but the shipping channels are very well defined on the Chesapeake, so the AIS is low priority.

Yes - paper charts are in the mix as well.

The EV-100 Autohelm was a snap to install and works great, and I have no plans to network it. The documentation sucks, so the wiring can be tricky, but once you realize each end of the data stream has to be terminated it makes sense.

Sorry I can't give a more complete response right now but we have about 10000 open ocean and coastal miles on our current system and feel comfortable giving it our strong recommendation. We have a B&G Zeus2 with their 4g radar and gofree. This allows us to view and control our navigation system from anywhere in the boat using our iPad via wifi. The plotter is fast, has powerful features both for navigation and sailing specifically, and is easy to use. B&G is owned by Navico, the same company that makes SIMRAD and Lowrance. The products are all compatible and plug-and-play. We have SIMRAD wind instruments, backup autopilot control, autopilot computer, and some data repeaters but the heart of the system is the Zeus2. B&G has a new product called the Vulcan that has fewer features but may better meet your needs and budget. The radar is incredible. It is so detailed that at some ranges we can clearly see each individual hull of a catamaran. It draws low power, is instant "on" (no warmup needed), and we often use it to track and avoid squalls. Currently we're on our second year of cruising in the south pacific and we're noticing a lot of B&G and Simrad radars and chart plotters on the "new" boats arriving in the region. I have prior experience with Furuno and Garmin and while they get the job done in my opinion the B&G Zeus2 is a step ahead for the reasons I stated above. Happy sailing! - Ryan SV Naoma (currently in Fakarava, Tuamotu Atolls.)