Creaking and Groaning

Hi There
I recently took my E38-200 out in fairly bad weather for the first time and the creaking and groaning in the cabin was really scary, I traced the noise to the cabin seating which is making contact with the floor as the boat flexes, I would like to pull up the floor and investigate what can be done but it appears that it is not meant to be removed, any info would be gratefully received as I really could not live with that amount of noise, it has to be fixed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Please Help
Bruce

The boat flexes? Can you describe that further?

Anything in this thread relate?

http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoex...8-E35-2-Squeeky-bulkhead-cabintop-connections

More creaking

On my recent trip down the coast, I noticed plenty of creaking...enough to keep me awake and pondering. At first I though it was hull flex, but I couldn't readily see any flexing happening after watching it the whole trip down, and finally traced it to the floor pan in the galley area.

After a bit of research, I came across this interview with Phil Macfarlane, who has sailed his E35-II to Hawaii and back (among other places) several times:
http://www.oceanslogic.com/interviews/phil-macfarlane/

Buried in the middle of this interview, Phil says this:
"After talking with Mr. King the designer, I re glassed the floor pan to the hull everywhere possible. He said this should have been done at the factory but I guess they were skimping on the parts no one would ever see."

Sure enough, after poking around under the floor pan with lights and a mirror, I was able to confirm that the floor is indeed NOT bonded to the hull...it just sort of floats on top. Just walking on it results in creaking, especially around the galley area.

I'm still considering how to tackle this job, but will probably start it in a couple of weeks when I'm in LA next.

Flexing

Christian Williams said:

The boat flexes? Can you describe that further?

Anything in this thread relate?

http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoex...8-E35-2-Squeeky-bulkhead-cabintop-connections

Click to expand...

Hi Christian
In order to trace the noises I crawled around on the floor listening and feeling with my hands, I found that I could feel a movement of about 1mm between the cabin seat (beneath the sink and the back of the main cabin seat at floor level) and the floor at the join which coincided with the sharp creaking sound, I am assuming that the boat should flex and if so there should be a slight gap to allow for some movement, I noticed that there was some some broken glue on the skirting board in this spot, you could put your finger on the floor and touching the skirting board and feel the movement very distinctly, I am hoping it will not be a major job to fix but I cannot live with that amount of noise, can the floor be removed on the E38-200 1988 model.
Please Help
Bruce

We need an E38-200 owner, but I am sure it's a fix you can do. You have the Tri-Axial Force Grid hull liner, I think, which should therefore be the attachment point for the furniture, rather than tabbed to the hull.

If your boat is like mine, the cabin sole was glued down. Good news, that stops floor squeaks. The other news is that it must be destroyed to remove.

For a different perspective: Someone recently posted this sphincter-tightening video, in another thread:
[video]https://youtu.be/Pmhttps://youtu.be/PmlTk_3NN_glTk_3NN_g[/video]

Well I'm not sure if that's working. It's a couple of shots looking down long passageways on a container ship in a storm, showing the whole thing twisting and bending.

Our boats creaks a little in rough seas, but I think they all do somewhat.

Toddster, your sphintcer-tightening link didn't work:0

I think this would be it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmlTk_3NN_g

Major Creaking

Christian Williams said:

We need an E38-200 owner, but I am sure it's a fix you can do. You have the Tri-Axial Force Grid hull liner, I think, which should therefore be the attachment point for the furniture, rather than tabbed to the hull.

If your boat is like mine, the cabin sole was glued down. Good news, that stops floor squeaks. The other news is that it must be destroyed to remove.

Click to expand...

Thanks Christian
I have decided that if the floor needs to be destroyed to fix this problem then so be it, could you explain what a Tri-Axial Force Grid hull liner is ????????????????????, apparently the furniture, floor, and hull should all be tied in together allowing no movement between them at all. How much damage will be done removing the floor.
Thanks Again
Bruce

If you search the site for TAFG you will find several references.
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoex...408-Tri-axial-grid-construction&referrerid=28

By comparison, the Olsen's had more of partial grid, in sections. Every part is glassed to the hull & deck and all of the timbered structure is also tabbed to deck and hull.

Our shroud attachment moldings and floors ("hat sections") where our keel bolts attach are pretty much the same as the diagram in reply 10.

Loren

Tafg

fullandby said:

You can find a bit of information on that here. Just be thankful that your knees aren't creaking like that rootsey333.

Click to expand...

Hi
Thanks heaps for the info, do you know how hard it will be to remove the floor or do you think that will be necessary.
Bruce

Creaking

Loren Beach said:

If you search the site for TAFG you will find several references.
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoex...408-Tri-axial-grid-construction&referrerid=28

By comparison, the Olsen's had more of partial grid, in sections. Every part is glassed to the hull & deck and all of the timbered structure is also tabbed to deck and hull.

Our shroud attachment moldings and floors ("hat sections") where our keel bolts attach are pretty much the same as the diagram in reply 10.

Loren

Click to expand...

Hi Loren
Thanks for the info but it looks like I will have to rip the cabin apart to stop the creaking.
What a blow
Bruce

rootsey333 said:

Hi Loren
Thanks for the info but it looks like I will have to rip the cabin apart to stop the creaking.
What a blow
Bruce

Click to expand...

Bruce,

You might want to take a deep breath before busting out that Sawzall just yet.

I do not think it's uncommon for boats to creak under certain conditions. I used to have a 1987 Catalina 30 that did--before I fixed the problem. Though I'm not certain I understand perfectly your description in post #4, it may be the same or a similar cause to what produced the problem with that boat. In mine, there was a gap between the cabin sole and the hull which, following the turn of the bilge, became narrower as you moved outboard. When the boat would "work" in a seaway, there would be a very slight movement between the underside of the sole and the hull, and there would be a resulting scraping of the two surfaces (on the port side), resulting in a creaking sound. I glassed in some wood between the two surfaces, so that the sole was joined to the hull as a single structure, and that eliminated the creaking. I don't think that was necessary to do for the structural integrity of the boat but it got rid of the annoying squeak and made me feel better. Plus, in that case, it was an easy enough fix (though the space was a bit tight).

It could be that I'm not understanding your situation and I am not familiar with your model boat in order to guess. But certainly before jumping into major destructive surgery I would get an expert opinion on it (a good local surveyor?). He/she could maybe set your mind at ease (or not, as the case may be) in terms of whether you have any serious structural things going on, and can perhaps suggest the least expensive way to remediate it. This may not be as terrible as it might seem to you at the moment. I personally doubt that the creaking per se is a huge red flag but depending upon how bad it is I can see how you would find it annoying. I certainly did, which is why I fixed it! But when I traced down the problem I found that it took very little movement to produce the noise, so it may literally sound worse than it is.

Good luck to you!

The TAFG that the seats and so on are attached to is almost an inch thick. On my model I am not aware of any allowances or gaps to accommodate expected flexing of the interior. The interior support is rock solid, even in heavy seas. So it seems to me that your issue must be that some furniture has come loose and is binding.

If your cabin sole--the wood floor--is glued down, I don't immediately see how it could be the source. And removing it is a major job.

For what it's worth, I would disassemble the localized problem area. Trim screws may be covered by plugs. The furniture may be tabbed. There may be water tanks to be moved for inspection. I would be looking for something loose, or modified by a previous owner, or added, or warped by immersion, or just possibly cut wrong at the factory.

Not much help, and I know these problems can take a lot of time to fix.

[typed simultaneously with Alan Gomes]

Don't Despair

Bruce,
Joliba is also a 1988 Ericson 38-200. In a seaway, she always creaks loudly in the cabin. A few months ago I spent some time with Ryan L aboard Naoma, another 1988 38-200. We discussed the same loud creaking noise. As you have done, Ryan localized its source to motion between the base of the starboard side of the galley sink cabinet and the surface of the cabin sole. I personally believe that this movement is neither structurally detrimental nor a hazard. The noise, however, is suggestive of an ancient wooden vessel whose planking is about to give way. Though likely not dangerous, the sound can be quite disconcerting, and very disruptive of restful sleep. So, the noise is the issue not the integrity of the boat.
What must be done? I know that Ryan has worked on this and may be able to provide a solution.(Naoma is currently lying in the Society Islands mid way between my boat in Lake Michigan and yours in Australia.) Lubrication, interposing a noise dampening material, or widening the gap where the rubbing occurs might mitigate the problem. I don't know. I have not tried it. I intend to replace my entire sole either this winter or the following year depending on how much time I have. I plan to try to address the creaking at that time.
Good luck.
Mike

Creaking

Hi Again Mike
Great to hear from you and many thanks for the info, I don't feel quite so bad now knowing other similar yachts have developed the exact same problem in the exact same place, I honestly don't know how the previous owners lived with that noise, I do not think I can, but I do agree with you that it is not structural which is what I first thought, I would really love to know how you go replacing the sole and addressing the creak because that's where I am headed now, so maybe I will be the first to find and fix it.
Many Cheers
Bruce

Here's more on the E38 creaking. Interesting quirk of a great yacht:

http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?3841-Creaking-Teak-and-Holly-Floor

There're many good threads here on replacing the cabin sole, which gets to be inevitable given our aging boats. Use a big search engine like Google, add "Ericson Yachts" or similar to the keywords. Here's a good one:

http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?1526-Removal-of-glued-down-cabin-sole

http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?6679-Replacing-teak-and-holly-floors-38-200

On my E-34 I had some creaking as the boat worked. I traced it down to the galley sink structure rubbing against the cabin sole where they overlapped. As I remember, I was able to get rid of the rubbing by sanding down the trim pieces where they rubbed.

Having replaced the sole, I would not remove the sole to get rid of a little creaking. It's a large PITA job.

The admiral insisted the holly strips all go in the same direction which caused a little added work and material usage.

Perhaps as a diagnostic tool you could try to insert some simple wooden shims in possible problem areas. Two of the responses here have mentioned the cabinetry in the galley so I think I would start there. If you could have your mate drive the boat when the sea is up a bit, perhaps you could apply your ear to the cabinets and narrow the source down, then jam shims under the source and see if it provides any relief to your ear.

Just an idea, but maybe a simple solution.