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Full Batten Main?

Shelman

Member III
Blogs Author
Anybody have experience with a full batten mainsail?
I am getting down to having a new mainsail built and its one of the options I'm trying to decide on.
I'd prefer not to have to get a new track system because it costs half again the price of the new main, I'm not sure if a full batten main will give me more troubles reefing and raising than would be worth it. Currently my sail raises and falls smoothly as long as I keep the slot and slugs coated with mclube sailcoat, but it gets rough without it.
Also is there any appreciable upwind performance to gain with the full batten mainsail, or is it simply a matter of limiting flogging and stretch to preserve the sail over time?

I also find I'm overpowered sailing upwind in winds above 15-18 kts with the 110 jib, but rolling it up more than 20% caused it to be too full and it flogs and flaps easily. my current jib is in very very good condition but i think perhaps it is cut a bit too full, my issue is compounded by the fact that my rig is 7/8 fractional with inline spreaders and so no way to really tension the for-stay for higher winds. I'm considering having a flatter cut 85% jib for the windy days.
Any ideas or experience would be appreciated.
I really want to be able to make good head way upwind in 25 kts.

I didn't want to hijack Rick's track thread ...
 
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Pat C.

Member III
Have one, great sail. Better sail shape, better upwind. Reefing and overall handling are the issues to address, I went with a Dutchman system, drops it onto the boom, couple of tugs here and there and it's stored. I singlehand almost exclusively, but I am a lake sailor, don't know how that translates to the real ocean world.
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
I would ask the sailmaker whether he recommends full-length battens with your mast track. The possible issue is batten pressure on the cars, which can cause binding.

Full length battens are semi-popular, do theoretically control shape better under certain conditions, and contain the sail on the boom in a way that some people prefer. They also add expense and complication and could be considered a marketing fad although I would certainly never ever say such a thing myself out loud.

I chose to have only the top two full-length. A lily-livered compromise, no doubt caused by being whacked in the eye several times by full length battens coming down..
 

Alan Gomes

Sustaining Partner
Anybody have experience with a full batten mainsail?
I am getting down to having a new mainsail built and its one of the options I'm trying to decide on.
I'd prefer not to have to get a new track system because it costs half again the price of the new main, I'm not sure if a full batten main will give me more troubles reefing and raising than would be worth it. Currently my sail raises and falls smoothly as long as I keep the slot and slugs coated with mclube sailcoat, but it gets rough without it.
Also is there any appreciable upwind performance to gain with the full batten mainsail, or is it simply a matter of limiting flogging and stretch to preserve the sail over time?

I also find I'm overpowered sailing upwind in winds above 15-18 kts with the 110 jib, but rolling it up more than 20% caused it to be too full and it flogs and flaps easily. my current jib is in very very good condition but i think perhaps it is cut a bit too full, my issue is compounded by the fact that my rig is 7/8 fractional with inline spreaders and so no way to really tension the for-stay for higher winds. I'm considering having a flatter cut 85% jib for the windy days.
Any ideas or experience would be appreciated.
I really want to be able to make good head way upwind in 25 kts.

I didn't want to hijack Rick's track thread ...
Randy,
I have a full battened main on my E26. No problems with reefing or raising/lowering. It does give a better shape and prolongs the life of the sail. It definitely works well when you are motor sailing when the wind craps out--i.e., conditions when a partially battened sail may be slatting back and forth. With the full battened sail you strap it in and it behaves itself nicely. (And then, when the wind picks up and you can start sailing again, you're good to go.)

Since you have a 110 I'd try first reefing the main before rolling up the jib as the wind picks up. You'll probably get better balance and the shape will be superior by leaving the jib at full size and reefing the main, because the shape of a rolled up headsail starts to go to pot the more you reef it, especially if it does not have a foam luff.

On a small boat like ours you are probably not going to be making "good" headway in 25 kts., and when you start getting to 30 and over that then I'd say forget it; I don't think it's realistic that you are going to make progress to windward.

One other consideration about your headsail: Ideally one has different sails for different conditions. Changing them out on a furler isn't fun, though, so I tend not to do it. I sail out of San Pedro, known as "Hurricane Gulch," where it frequently blows in the 20's--though we get our share of light conditions too (especially in the non-summer months). But for my boat I recently went with a new 135%, foam luff, 7.25 oz. genoa. At first I was reluctant to go this large but after conversations with the sail maker I decided it was the way to go and so far I'm pleased I did. The reason is, the E26 is a pretty heavy boat for its size, and the boat is only a fractional rig so the jib isn't that large anyway compared to a masthead rigged boat. My 110% (which I still have) was OK for beating to windward on my way to Catalina in 18 knots, but for the trip home--often a screaming broad reach--the boat was definitely under powered and sailed like a bit of a slug. The 135% really gives it a kick in the pants for those return trips and the boat is a lot more fun to sail. The foam luff lets me roll it up to about a 110 or 115% with still a decent enough shape, but trying to turn it into an 85% jib isn't going to work too well. I also have two reef points on the main, so between partially furling the jib and reefing the main I'm good for any conditions I'm typically going to see here.
 

Jeff Asbury

Principal Partner
I've had a full batten main for the past 11 years on my 1973 E-27. Very happy with it. "Extra knot", as a racing friend once told me when I first got it. Also consider you may need to get a new main sail cover because of the way the cars stack up when the sails down. I do believe that it has extended the life of the sail as well. I agree with the statements of others that posted here, that it holds the shape better. Yes it's easier to drop and gather, although I do not have a lazy jack system.

Some pics from when the sails were new.
 

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markvone

Sustaining Member
Definitely talk to your sailmaker about the advantages vs negatives of full battens relative to how you use your boat and your style of sailing and overall plan for replacing sails. If the advantages match your needs, the negatives are worth dealing with. I doubt there are any sailing performance advantages of full battens on an E26 main with the roach size restricted by the backstay, but your sailmaker will know for sure.

I highly recommend a backstay adjuster for the E26 if you don't have one. On my '84 E26, I added a removable 4:1 block and tackle, identical to the vang, between a padeye on the transom and a special pair of wire backstay blocks on each leg of the backstay just below the split. This is an easy and inexpensive install on the E26. You can get a decent amount of bend out of the Kenyon E26 mast which flattens the main AND adds significant headstay tension at the same time - even with the 7/8ths rig. Flattening the main with mast bend and the jib by taking the sag out of the headstay should add several knots of wind range to the upper end.

After flattening with backstay and outhaul, I would next move the jib lead aft which will flatten the bottom of the jib and allow the top to twist off and spill some wind. Don't move it aft so much that the top of the jib is flogging.

I would then start reefing the main vs rolling the jib as Alan suggests. Partial furling of a jib is OK for reaching and running but the shape is horrible for upwind. I find reefing not to be too difficult or dangerous except for the trip to the mast to hook in the new tack. I have slab reefing and aft led halyards and reef lines pre-marked at the locations for the reefs.

All three of the steps above will be easier than changing down to an 85% jib on a furler while underway in a big breeze and perform better upwind than a partially furled 110.

One last thought. If you are currently using a 110 as your only headsail because you always have a lot of wind or can live with it when it is light, I would talk to your sailmaker about the possibilities of building a similar size sail that is built to furl. Smaller sail sizes are much easier to design to furl than larger ones. They are built flatter and out of heavier material to start with and there is much less material to furl up. I would try the things above first to see how much improvement they make.

Mark
 

Shelman

Member III
Blogs Author
Thanks guys this information is really really helpful! This is becoming my most complicated upgrade yet.
 

Alan Gomes

Sustaining Partner
I've had a full batten main for the past 11 years on my 1973 E-27. Very happy with it. "Extra knot", as a racing friend once told me when I first got it. Also consider you may need to get a new main sail cover because of the way the cars stack up when the sails down. I do believe that it has extended the life of the sail as well. I agree with the statements of others that posted here, that it holds the shape better. Yes it's easier to drop and gather, although I do not have a lazy jack system.

Some pics from when the sails were new.
That's sure a nice 27 you've got there, Jeff!
 

Alan Gomes

Sustaining Partner
Definitely talk to your sailmaker about the advantages vs negatives of full battens relative to how you use your boat and your style of sailing and overall plan for replacing sails. If the advantages match your needs, the negatives are worth dealing with. I doubt there are any sailing performance advantages of full battens on an E26 main with the roach size restricted by the backstay, but your sailmaker will know for sure.

I highly recommend a backstay adjuster for the E26 if you don't have one. On my '84 E26, I added a removable 4:1 block and tackle, identical to the vang, between a padeye on the transom and a special pair of wire backstay blocks on each leg of the backstay just below the split. This is an easy and inexpensive install on the E26. You can get a decent amount of bend out of the Kenyon E26 mast which flattens the main AND adds significant headstay tension at the same time - even with the 7/8ths rig. Flattening the main with mast bend and the jib by taking the sag out of the headstay should add several knots of wind range to the upper end.

After flattening with backstay and outhaul, I would next move the jib lead aft which will flatten the bottom of the jib and allow the top to twist off and spill some wind. Don't move it aft so much that the top of the jib is flogging.

I would then start reefing the main vs rolling the jib as Alan suggests. Partial furling of a jib is OK for reaching and running but the shape is horrible for upwind. I find reefing not to be too difficult or dangerous except for the trip to the mast to hook in the new tack. I have slab reefing and aft led halyards and reef lines pre-marked at the locations for the reefs.

All three of the steps above will be easier than changing down to an 85% jib on a furler while underway in a big breeze and perform better upwind than a partially furled 110.

One last thought. If you are currently using a 110 as your only headsail because you always have a lot of wind or can live with it when it is light, I would talk to your sailmaker about the possibilities of building a similar size sail that is built to furl. Smaller sail sizes are much easier to design to furl than larger ones. They are built flatter and out of heavier material to start with and there is much less material to furl up. I would try the things above first to see how much improvement they make.

Mark
Mark has some great advice here. I would only add a few comments: (1) You can set up your reefing so it can be done entirely in the cockpit. I have separate lines for tack and clew, which I think is preferable over a single-line reefing setup (though I have used a single line setup successfully). I can reef the main in less than one minute. (2) It is true that whenever you partially roller reef a jib the shape starts to deteriorate, relatively speaking. And the more you roll it in the worse it gets. But a foam luff really does help, and if you don't roll it up too drastically you can actually get a decent shape for windward work--"decent," but certainly not as good as a full-sized, unfurled sail. That's why I do think it best to reef the main first, because a properly reefed main does not suffer a degradation in its shape. (3) If you do partially furl the jib then you will generally need to move your lead cars forward for the correct sheeting angle. The ideal setup would be one of those Harken or Garhauer systems that let you move the cars under load. But that's too much $$ for me and a bit of overkill for what I am going to need. So I just got some nice, new blocks that slide well on the track with the spring-loaded "plungers" vs. the old Schaeffer cars where you had to turn a knurled knob to screw it down into position. I also marked the track with numbers spaced every foot, so I can see at a glance where to position the leads when I want to replicate past settings that I have found work well.
 

Shelman

Member III
Blogs Author
I just spoke to my sail maker for a half hour about my various ideas and issues. (Travis at Mack Sails) his recommendation is that an 85% jib is to small because it would only get used when the wind is really up and the sail area wouldn't be sufficient on more ordinary lighter days, he said its not the size that I'm likely struggling with but the fact that it won't roll up properly on the roller, and also likely that the circa 1985 jib even though it looks fine could be stretched out more than it looks.
Travis said I could probably even go up a size to a 120% or a 130% with a well designed new jib that has well placed luff pads, and still be able to reef down smaller than I can reef currently with my 110% and still get a good sail shape.

Travis said that for my set up he recommends a batten car that will fit in my current Kenyon luff groove but that has rollers that run on the back side of the mast, so that I wont have any trouble reefing or hoisting with the full battens, and I don't need to add an additional track to get smooth operation.

And finally he recommended adding check-stays for beating in heavier weather if I'm determined to get the most out of my particular fractional rig because I don't have swept spreaders to tighten the for-stay.
 

markvone

Sustaining Member
I would add the backstay adjuster first. It's less expensive, less complicated and reversible. An E26 main and 100% jib are the same sail area, so they have about equal effect on power and heeling. The E26 Kenyon mast is not super bendy and 7/8ths fractional. Adding backstay tension will significantly tension the forestay at the same time it is trying to bend the mast. If it's windy you want to be doing both of these things to reduce heel. Adding runners that attach to the hounds (the location on the mast where the forestay attaches) will only allow tensioning the forestay (flattening the jib) WITHOUT bending the mast and flattening the main. You will need to add the backstay adjuster to flatten the main. Having both allows you options for flattening the main and jib individually but is overkill for your needs.

Two more advantages of the backstay adjuster: 1. The ability to set your static rig tension lower. This allows more sag in the headstay which powers up the jib when conditions are light and pulling the sag out when the wind comes up. 2. A small amount of mast pre-bend will prevent mast pumping if you have it. Runners attached at the hounds to tension the forestay won't prevent pumping, you'll need a second lower set of checkstays attached about the middle of the mast.

Adding runners will require adding a pair of tangs or t-ball slots on the mast to attach the top of the runner to the mast. You'll need a pair of strong padeyes aft on the deck. The stay could be wire or high tech line. I would tension with a pair of 4:1 tackles (like your vang) with snap shackles, so you can move them forward to the side stays and out of the way when off the wind (and where they will bang around and beat up the aft edge of your spreaders).

A 1985 Dacron jib is most certainly stretched out of it's original shape to some degree unless it has never been used. When you are using it partially rolled at the top (or over) it's wind range it will stretch quite a bit more. This deformation of shape has the most negative effect and is most noticeable upwind. The distorted shape has much less effect when reaching and off the wind.

You didn't mention if you experience enough light air at your sailing location that you are often underpowered with the 110 jib. Going up to a 120/130 will help quite a bit with lighter winds. I'll also throw out there that using a laminate vs Dacron will reduce stretch and allow the sail to hold it's design shape longer but will cost more.

Mark
 

Shelman

Member III
Blogs Author
Thanks Mark, Alan has been telling me to dust off the backstay adjuster as for some time now. I tried to use it the first year I had the boat but I didn't really have a full grasp of how it worked back then and I'm sure it will be of great benefit now.
I don't have any struggles with light air because I have a great asymmetrical spinnaker that works through a broad wind direction range from slightly up wind to well off the wind.
Thanks for the info on runners. I think I'll try the backstay tensioner since I already have it and see if it makes enough diffidence for me. I'm still intrigued with the idea of runners though.
My 110 was built in 1985 but was never taken out of the sail bag until I bought the boat five years ago so its in really nice shape. still it seems it may not have been designed to hold its shape while partially furled.

Alan, I also have the spring loaded pin on the jib track car and it is nice and easy to adjust on the fly.
I typically don't mind going forward to reef but a line on the tack for reefing does sound like an easy way to pull in a quick reef.

Now I just have to decide what size jib to go with....
 
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markvone

Sustaining Member
If you already have the backstay adjuster definitely give it a try. Don't be so concerned with using it to "tune" the sail shapes at first, just leave it loose until you get enough wind to be overpowered, then crank it on and see how much it helps. You can experiment between on and off over time. The idea is to do as much easy adjusting of small things as you can to prevent having to harder things like rolling and reefing and even harder things like changing a jib.

Since you can close reach and run in light wind with your asymmetric, you are only giving up light air upwind performance with a smaller jib and gaining the heavier air benefits. Which conditions do you sail in more often? Do you even attempt to sail upwind when its light or do you reach off and raise the A-sail so you can keep moving? Your answer will help you decide. Also, since you already have the 110, I'd be trying all the adjustments I mentioned first, maybe they do the trick. You might also get more power out of your 110 by loosening static forestay tension since you can crank it back in with the backstay. Lastly, my sailmaker recommended inhaulers for my 105 to help get more power in light air. I have a 150 and 105 and they are HUGE and a bear to change so I try every trick I can to power them up or down to avoid changing!

Mark
 

pikesbayone

Junior Member
Full battens ?

Anybody have experience with a full batten mainsail?
I am getting down to having a new mainsail built and its one of the options I'm trying to decide on.
I'd prefer not to have to get a new track system because it costs half again the price of the new main, I'm not sure if a full batten main will give me more troubles reefing and raising than would be worth it. Currently my sail raises and falls smoothly as long as I keep the slot and slugs coated with mclube sailcoat, but it gets rough without it.
Also is there any appreciable upwind performance to gain with the full batten mainsail, or is it simply a matter of limiting flogging and stretch to preserve the sail over time?

I also find I'm overpowered sailing upwind in winds above 15-18 kts with the 110 jib, but rolling it up more than 20% caused it to be too full and it flogs and flaps easily. my current jib is in very very good condition but i think perhaps it is cut a bit too full, my issue is compounded by the fact that my rig is 7/8 fractional with inline spreaders and so no way to really tension the for-stay for higher winds. I'm considering having a flatter cut 85% jib for the windy days.
Any ideas or experience would be appreciated.
I really want to be able to make good head way upwind in 25 kts.

I didn't want to hijack Rick's track thread ...

My previous boat was a C&C 34 that we raced. The main had a bolt rope that threaded into the sail track and the advantages were: it was light weight, it closed off slot between the mast and the main, and it was easy to reef. I recently bought an Ericson Olson 911se (30 foot) that came with full battens and batt cars. That main with all its hardware weighs a good bit more than the C&C 34 main weighed. But I like it. I single hand sometimes now, and the main is easy to raise and lower. Another advantage is that the battens can be pre tensioned, so in very light air they still give an airfoil shape to the main. Ih similar conditions a main with typical PHRF battens would just be flapping. I just wish that it didn't add so much weight aloft.
 

Shelman

Member III
Blogs Author
Lots of good info coming in here, thanks guys. I'm definitely decided on a full batten main and the roller cars. I am going to have a new fore-sail made also because I get a very nice discount for purchasing the pair which makes it too hard to pass up.

I got to looking at my rig and thinking about the running back-stays (I know I probably don't need them but I'm a curious guy) and I think There is a good way to give it a test to see how well it might or might not be advantageous. My spinnaker halyard is just above the fore-stay and the shrouds so If I just grab both ends of the externally mounted spinnaker halyard and bring it back to the cockpit I can tension it to an aft cleat and see what happens. It might even work well enough that Ill give up the idea of the runners. Or it might be as lame as the time I tried rigging up a boom brake with a rock climbing figure eight Ha Ha.
 

Shelman

Member III
Blogs Author
+1 Mack Sails

Update on the new sails:
I went with the full batten main and I am very pleased with the decision! The batten filled sail doesn't flog in the wind if I leave it up while motoring or while tacking or hoisting, and its shape is obviously better than the old baggy bed sheet of a mainsail from 1985 that I was using. The fitment and placement of hardware are all perfect and the shape is beautiful. It is built like a tank with double stitching and extra layers in all the right places.
I stayed with the closed foot and I am pleased with that decision too. Instead of a bolt rope for attachment at the foot they installed luff slugs which not only make it easier to adjust than the bolt rope but also solve the old wear issues that came along with the luff rope rubbing in the groove. It really is fun to see the sail react to my inputs, like mast bend with the back-stay tension and out haul tension. the old sail was just baggy all the time and always flogged no matter what. Quite the difference.

For the new jib I stayed with a 110% and its size is suited just perfectly for the sailing that I do.
The new foam luff and shape of cut also work wonderfully for reefing on the furler. although my old main had only about for years of use on it and still a good shape for sailing, it was not designed for reefing on the furler. furling yes but not a partial furl in order to reef, anything beyond rolling it up about two turns on the furling foil and it transformed into the shape of an old pillow case. Not so with the new sail, I was sailing in 18+ kts of wind yesterday in steep heavy 5' swells with chop from another direction and had it rolled up an impressive three quarters of the way in and it still had a very functional shape with no flogging or baggy area in the middle. Along with the double reefed main we were doing 6.5 kts boat speed on a close reach in the choppy mess with water flying all over. Fun day.
 
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Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Not so with the new sail, I was sailing in 18+ kts of wind yesterday in steep heavy 5' swells with chop from another direction and had it rolled up an impressive three quarters of the way in and it still had a very functional shape with no flogging or baggy area in the middle.

This has been my experience, too. The new genoas perform extremely well, even when furled well past their foam, even down to 10 percent. (In my case, UK tape drive cruising model).
 

Rick R.

Contributing Partner
Not so with the new sail, I was sailing in 18+ kts of wind yesterday in steep heavy 5' swells with chop from another direction and had it rolled up an impressive three quarters of the way in and it still had a very functional shape with no flogging or baggy area in the middle.

This has been my experience, too. The new genoas perform extremely well, even when furled well past their foam, even down to 10 percent. (In my case, UK tape drive cruising model).

Ours does well too. The Garhauer Genoa cars make proper sail trim easier when reefed.
 
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