e35 electrical harness

im planning on ripping every wire out of my e35-2 and setting up a new harness. currently there are multiple rats nests in many spots of the boat and there are wires run through the bildge(bush leauge). id have made a list of all the components i plan on wiring and have drawn a preliminary blueprint of what i need. i wanted to see if anyone has experience/advice or any general suggestions. i try to search for threads on topics like this before posting a topic that has most likely been discussed at length, however, besides using the search bar, i am not very successful at navigating this site. i know Loren usually responds with a link pretty quickly which i greatly appreciate.

thanks
barry

Connectors?

Not sure if Barry got any responses. I am on the same trail, albeit I have given up on replacing the harness (as nice as it would be!). Just too many things that have to be moved around.

I am looking for new multi-pin connectors instead. I want to wire up the engine (my other thread) and then also change/update the control panel to temp and voltage only with a minimum number of switches and redo those connections in the course. After a number of contact issues last season and general corrosion it is time!

I found a nice-looking connector in the ZIP PORT 10A system. Has anyone else replaced the black harness connectors?

For reference: M25-XP w/ Deluxe panel. I need 8 minimum.

Barry,

Welcome aboard. Forums usually don't have a billion-dollar search function, so some of us use Google--which usually returns everything on this list anyhow, along with anything else out there. The Catalina owners site has quite a lot on the M25 and XP, since their boats used them also.

Loren knows much more, and I wonder if he uses Google first.....

Chris - Just a thought... What are the car manufacturers using? Their stuff has gotten pretty reliable over the last twenty years, not to mention, relatively inexpensive.

I use Google for most forum searches...

Safari has the Google search box built in the upper right corner of the browser widow.

When in google, I type in : ericsonyachts.org: word-or-phrase

This seems to bring up 'bout everything, as this site must be well-indexed by the google bots.

Loren

AMP Connectors

During the re-wiring phase of our boat we found that the glow plug wire in the westerbeke had melted thru its insulation.
So that also need to be replaced. Thats when I noticed the cheap trailer harness connectors used.
So I found the right two AMP Industrial (amphenol 97 series) connectors with the right pin out.

Dunno... the common wisdom over on the Moyer Marine forums is that the plug-in harnesses that came with many Atomic-4 equipped boats are very likely to be a source of trouble. And hence should be replaced with unbroken wire runs from panel to device. On the other hand, the military gets a lot of mileage out of those AMP connectors. I got a couple on Ebay to use on my mast connections, but ran into a problem making sure that all of the pins were the right size for the different gauge wires. (LOL, the OLD connector was all, like 24 ga. wires. None of the circuits worked.) Didn't solve it before the date with the travel lift, so I just terminated everything at a terminal block behind the compression post.

Wiring Harness

I also have wiring problems. This boat has been rewired at least twice. I long for the harnesses in the promotional photos of the 34-2! My goal for the electrical is to get through one cruise without an engine failure.
The latest problem was a failure of the Facet fuel pump. It froze up at the entrance buoy to the harbor. I ended up being pushed in by a friends dink. It ran fine at the dock. The new electronic Facet ran but didn't pump. A voltage check showed 9.7 volts at the pump. A wire trace showed a rotted off ground. With the ground replaced, the check showed 10.7 volts. A systems check showed 12.7 at the ignition switch with the switch off and 10.7 with it on. The glow plug switch (not original) had melted in the on position. The power was fed through a five pole automotive ignition switch. The primary power feed to the engine is 18 gauge. The new glow plug switch brought the system power up t. 12.7 volts. The alternator checks out ok but the low voltage seems to have killed the tach and the temp gauges. What can one say?

I also have not seen any heavier duty plug in harnesses. You can have them custom made but you need to know exactly what you want and not plan on any future changes. I am looking at using Blue Sea terminal strips, individual wired (tinned) and wrapping them in split wire looms so that wires can be added and removed without wrecking the loom. Also, I will always know there is a positive contact at the terminal ends. I will also use the shrink wrap terminal ends. I have had to replace rotted ends on non essential equipment like the automatic bilge pump switch because of the automotive crimped terminals used. One horrible mistake I have here is wrapping the terminal ends with electrical tape to try to seal them. Every one had gotten moisture inside and rotted. Also a note to those who think that their engine will power through an electrical failure as long as it in not turned off. The Universal uses an electric fuel pump. No power, no run.

If anyone has a great way to go, I'm all ears.

Bob Morrison
Terra Nova
E-34-2

Next steps

I think we all agree the current harness/connectors are (by now) just waiting to fail. As I disconnected everything before getting the engine out, I noticed a number of wires with burn marks on them, not to speak about clipped-off ground wires etc. BTW, I had the same issue with the Facet a few years ago. The connections along the way back from the panel had become less-than good, and I chased down the voltage drop ultimately to a faulty ground connection to the engine itself. Off Port Jefferson with no wind at 8PM in a 2 knot current. I replaced the Facet and actually just now replaced the basket and gasket inside, too. Not sure how I ended up having a little crud inside (with the 2u primary). Maybe it just 'grew' right there. Ahhh...a 25 year old boat!

I'll look around some more for connectors. Ideally we would probably all want something like 15 pole with AWG10 wire and then a more robust harness, but those are probably bulky. Following the suggestion, I'll also look again at the amp requirements (Glow Plugs probably being the biggest followed by the fuel pump) to see if I can even get away with the #14 on the plugs I had looked at. Thanks all for your thoughts!

Will keep you posted...

Somewhat Related thread

http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?9617-Another-Facet-pump-question.

More about Hots and Grounds....

I don't understand why you want a plug at all.

The plug is great on the fuel hose of my dingy outboard, I take it on and off the boat every day when cruising.

When I rewire engine harnesses, I either directly wire the harness into the engine, or bring all of the engine side wiring to a terminal block mounted above the engine, with a cover over it. The terminal block allows for testing of various electric items on the engine should the need arise. However I have found that using quality wire and connectors on the engine generally eliminate the need for even the terminal strip.

Engine wiring harnesses generally come from the factory with the cheapest wire and plugs possible, they also tend to be tight runs, where there is just enough or not quite enough wire to go from the wired object to the plug. The plug is there for the boat builder to make it easy for them when everything is new, other than that it has no advantages. The disadvantages are huge for the boat owner though.

These are not complex wiring harnesses. A few sensors, a solenoid, etc are all that there is here. On boats as old as most of ours we should be thinking about replacing that non marine wire anyway. Also a big advantage here is that you can install fuses on the lines as necessary, such as the glow plug circuit. Also make sure that the wire is the correct gauge... Don't assume that the engine manufacture used the correct wire, I have seen a lot of cases where the glow plug wire was undersized for a run to any panel.

Unless you are removing your engine every season, I can't see the use at all in a plug.

Guy

I had to source Amphenol connectors for a motion control camera system many years ago and IIRC they are pretty pricey...

Thanks, Guy!

Clear case of tunnel vision, Guy! No, I don't plan on EVER doing this again, and I totally agree with all your arguments for the terminal block! Will go that route for sure. Maybe I can mount it on the port side just above the access panel from the aft cabin, fairly far forward.

I am still not sure I want to go all the way and redo the entire harness, given how much additional stuff needs to be pulled apart to properly route it. OTOH, I'll definitely look into it. Worst case, I can prep for 'later', and getting the terminal block and the control panel right is a great step in that direction.

Thanks again for straightening me out! :nerd:

Guy is right. Our experience is that the old plugs are a disaster waiting to happen, and that those of our skippers who have replaced their engines simply hard wired them.

You might be interested in our C34 Critical upgrades which discusses this in some detail, as well as a link and contribution from Maine Sail. (3 pages, please read them all)

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5078.0.html

More info on the wiring harness is available from a Google Search on our C34 website:

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,7570.0.html

You can also find more by clicking on "C34 Tech wiki" at the top of any of our C34 Forum pages.

Good luck.

Mil Spec Trumps all

Sorry but Mil Spec is Mil Spec I will agree that Terminal Strips are great; use them all the time but I needed to be able to repair a poorly designed /
built wire harness from westerbeke. Undersized wire / non tinned copper wire during the winter months in upstate New York. So I used what the US Navy would require while rebuilding the wire harness. I'll also say that yes Amp Connectors are not cheap but in Boat Bucks not much of a delta vs the ability to remove a control panel quickly and easily. I have no problem with an overkill nor do any of my friends at the marina that I help out. Rather do it right the first time then repeat the process which is such a common theme at most marines. Poorly crimped Connectors or even worse twisted together wires like what I found in that melted mess. Also found the 500+ dollar repair bill in the paperwork found on the boat.
I know just from the post from Guy ( Thanks again Guy all of your Input on Elusive ) and MaineSail they do great work but in general the Mechanics in the boating world are not in the same realm as a BMW mechanic or even an Airman First Class Crew Chief; let alone an A&P Mechanic or Defense Contractor.
So yes, if I was doing it in the boat / for somebody else I most likely would have used a terminal strip but this is our boat so......

Mil Spec doesn't mean anything, it is just like the word Jumbo

There are US Military Specs for everything, and I do mean everything, including the thickness and composition of the toilet paper in the standard field latrine. If you have ever tried to wipe your ... with it, you will know that it is the worst toilet paper in the world.

There are over a thousand different specifications for wiring in the Mil Spec system, most of them are not at all suitable for use on boats.

A consumer marine grade terminal strip, can be installed and serviced anywhere by anyone at any time. If you think that poorly crimped connectors exist on the ends of most DIY wire connected to a terminal strips, you should see the number of connectors that I have seen Manufactured by AMP and installed incorrectly by everyone, including some great crew chiefs in the military.

You will also find that the Mil Spec system links each one of those "Mil Spec" connectors to a specific use, the specific pin size and conductor rating is for the equipment that it is Speced out to be installed on. They are doing different things than we are with different parts on different machinery.

If you like AMP connectors please continue to use them, as I said, most of the time I wire directly to the panel, no breaks in the wire, as there isn't a need for them. I have never needed to "Quickly Remove a control Panel on a 40 foot sailboat". I have had to troubleshoot more than my fair share of them.

Make sure that you use the correct AMP connectors for the voltage and amperage that are required for the project that you are working on. The make a few of them that are even water tight.

Not trying to start a flame war here, just a note for future people looking at the thread.



Guy

LOL. I wrote a long off-topic rant about "military specifications I have known (that were written by morons)." Then I deleted it. I felt much better.

Thanks

Great stuff and excellent discussion. After all those years I am still amazed how this Forum has developed and the caliber of senior-level sailors and 'fixers' (not necessarily in that order! ) it has attracted since the beginning!

I always forget about the C34 Forum, but I'll look at them for guidance. This is time for me to get it right!

More findings coming in the other Thread on E34 engine work.

Help please with the terms:

An AMP connector, I take it, is manufactured by AMP. There are hundreds of types. Are there 'marine" AMP connectors? Does the brand matter?

How does an appropriate AMP connector differ from the much maligned "trailer" connector?

I take from the discussion that a terminal strip is "better" (simpler, testable, visible) than AMP connectors. Yes?

Tried to wiki these questions. Turns out electrical connectors are, er, a broad topic.

Amp / Amphenol 97 series

I've attached the PDF file for the 97 series connectors I used when I rebuilt our westerbeke harness. In the engine bay all of the wire was upgraded to minimum 12ga 120c Insulation. From the bulkhead
connectors to the control panel I used Ancor wire. Did not feel like using the 120c Alpha Wire
You can purchase the connectors at either Newark Electronics or digi-key; I like the service I get from Newark better then Digi-key. Newark is more like a McMaster-Carr in my book.
Terminal strips are great but I have one real problem with them, you should ( at least according to one of my employers ) only use Terminal rings never a spade connector. So the chance of losing the little screws are pretty good, I have a nice set of split screwdrivers just for this reason.
The reason for the ring terminal is it is captured were the spade connector is not. I known that 3m , amp and T&B all make really good spade connector that are consider captured but they are not.
Does it matter most likely not but my old employer had no problems rejecting multi-million dollar tools just because of spade connectors were used.
I normally buy terminal strips/blocks and connectors at McMaster-Carr, they have a very good selection.
Trailer connectors are just poorly made, the pins both Male / Female are underrated for the loads seen across them, plus the wire used is very cheap. Yes they work great for brake lights but not much else.
Well I tried to attach the file but it was way to big.......so http://www.amphenol-industrial.com/index.php/97-series
I hope this makes sense.