Sea trial for 1990 Ericson 34-2 next week

[Pete the Cat]

The quality of the picture of the prop is not good enough on my computer to offer an overall opinion. Some pitting is normal and some nicks on the blades would not be a big deal but you can pick up a used fixed blade Campbell Sailor prop (which this is likely to be) for cheap second hand if that is a problem--lots of them around--you need to know the pitch and size. The blisters really do not look like a big deal either. They look to be between the gelcoat and substrate and this is common. They also may have been caused by someone putting on a "barrier coat" over the gelcoat and then trapping moisture between the layers--this would account for the widespread tiny blisters if I am gauging the size correctly--this is a common problem caused by boatyards and DIYers after the blister chaos of past decades. There is one bump (where the cluster of smaller bumps) in #37 I might puncture and see if the glass under it has been affected, but even then, I do not see anything that would worry me if the glass around it sounds OK. I have done a fair amount of bottom work in the 1980s and 90s. Blisters are mostly cosmetic issues even when they are severe (except Uniflite products from the 1980s where the blisters indicated delamination in some Valiant yachts). I am an anti barrier coat person--my view is that these products have caused more blisters than they have prevented--I cannot prove that--but I have seen it repeatedly in the boatyard.

 

[Loren Beach]

dezincification of propeller?

When we bought our used boat, moored/ignored three years in Alameda, SF Bay, the surveyor carved a little piece of copper off of one blade. It looked like the usual bronze factory-default OEM two blade fixed prop. He showed me little pink piece of copper and said to make the seller replace the de-zincified prop. Luckily the strut was OK. Surmise was that the marina had some boats with electrical problems, but that's a guess.
A new two blade prop was put on as part of the transaction.
Our hull showed a patch of small blisters, about a foot by 3 feet on one side of the bottom. Surveyor advised to not get too upset by that -- sand down and fill and fair. That was in 1994; they have not returned.
Our experiences are prerhaps unique to us, but perhaps they might provide some perspective.
And when we got it home, by truck, the yard was about to paint the bottom and we all noticed a baseball-size divot (!) at the bottom leading edge of the keel. Some one must have hit something under the water. The yard said they would grind it out and fill it with some good poly filler. They did, and the little repair is still invisible. (Lead keel dentistry?)

 

[Phr3d]

The quality of the picture of the prop is not good enough on my computer to offer an overall opinion.

Here is the other picture.

 

[Prairie Schooner]

Blisters:
It's something we're currently facing. This thread includes a couple of lists of related links. If you read it all and are like me, you'll end being less sure of a course of action.

Blistering

Just had misty pulled out for bottom paint this morning. This is the first time I've had her out of the water, and there are a bunch of little blisters pretty much all over the hull. This is a new topic for me, and I'm just gathering some information on if/how to address this. It appears the...

ericsonyachts.org

Jeff

 

[Pete the Cat]

Here is the other picture.

View attachment 49828

Well, I don't see anything I would be concerned with. Those are likely corrosion spots but the prop does not seem to be pink and de-zinced from what I see here. I would clean it up and put it very low on my ongoing list of things to watch and put some good zincs on the prop shaft--properly installed--we make sure the shaft is bright clean before installing them and hit them with a hammer in the tightening process. I actually like to install them one day and come back a day or two later and tighten them on the shaft--they tend to get a tiny bit loose and lose their conductivity--hence corrosion like you see if there is stray current anywhere. Some of the folks in the yard seem to like to put some grease on the prop before splashing. Some folks are spending a lot of cash on PropSpeed--but I have not seen the need for this on a regularly sailed and used prop.

 

[bigd14]

dezincification of propeller

Be very sure that the strut has not also dezincified. Replacement is a big, $$ job.

E30-3 - 1984 E30+ Strut Replacement- Part 1

During removal of the cutless bearing, chunks of the strut started coming off. The inside of the strut around the bearing was pure pink, indicating severe galvanic corrosion. So the entire strut has to be replaced. I was originally hoping that...

ericsonyachts.org

 

[Kenneth K]

West Marine quoted me $3k for all new SS standing rigging (not including installation). All rigging can be replaced (a few pieces at a time) with the mast up. If replacing the headstay, the biggest decision is whether or not to replace the roller furler. A new furler adds $3-4K.

$7K to "make the engine right" is way too vague. The only substantive thing I saw on your list was motor mounts. Get a second opinion on whether they need to be replaced--otherwise, nothing else on your list merits pulling the engine.
- Water pumps? Unless they are leaking or defective, most people would not replace pre-emptively.
- Heat exchanger and exhaust elbow can be removed and boiled out--good time to replace all the hoses as well.
- What kind of prop shaft seal does it have, and what is the condition?
- There is almost nothing that can be done to a transmission other than a complete rebuild (ok, maybe a new damper plate). Rebuilding is usually a worse idea than outright replacement, and that is only IF, the transmission really needs to be replaced.
- Scraping rust and spraying touch-up paint is something that can be done little-by-little as you're in there working on the engine.

Or, if you'd rather just write a check, I'm sure the yard would be happy to do a bunch of these mostly basic tasks for $7K.

 

[Phr3d]

$7K to "make the engine right" is way too vague.

I've been going through the details on the surveys. Here's quote with a list, "At this time all the hoses can be replaced, as well as both water pumps and the heat exchanger serviced, and re installed with a new exhaust elbow assembly. While the engine is out, the engine bay can be cleaned properly, a new shaft coupler installed, a new seal at the shift arm of the transmission, and new control and stop cables."

There was a picture of the exhaust hose visibly rusting through (which I can't find). How much of that hose do I buy (not a fan of carbon monoxide poisoning) for an E34?

A bunch of the work is within my ability level. My wife's preference is for it just to be done. So, there is a balance between the $$$ for now and the time for my labor that saves $$$. The pictures of the engine don't make it look pretty though. The transmission shift arm seal may have part of the spring hanging out?

 

[Nick J]

We just did this last year:

Engine Compartment Clean up

We’re scheduling a haul out later this month to get the bottom painted, cutlass bearing replaced, speed transducer replaced, and install a dripless shaft seal. The previous owner left the stuffing box unattended while they had to deal with some health issues which damaged the engine mounts...

ericsonyachts.org

It was a lot of work but it was with it.

 

[Loren Beach]

The level of corrosion is, to me, a sign that the prior owner(s) did not perform regular preventative maintenance . Engine compartment tasks can often be "out of sight and out of mind". Wire brushing and paint for some of those surfaces needs doing. And, finding out where the salt water is getting in. Maybe spray from a mal-adjusted stuffing box?

Regarding the rust showing on what is likely the original exhaust hose, yeah that was on our short list of problems found in 2017 that led to the decision to replace our Universal M25XP, in 2018. Our Hurth transmission was a concern, the wiring harness and instruments needed replacing, and any work on the engine at all would call for replacing the torque plate. We had long term oil leaks around the pan bolts and some form the main seal (?).

Once the engine is lifted up and just moved into the cabin, the whole area can be cleaned and painted. It's just time and money, as we found.
I was able to hire an expert ship wright to do the actual swap, and I did all the refurbishing while the area was empty.
While my boat is not quite the same inside as the 34-2, it is similar.
I did not begrudge paying any expert to do the work that he was very familiar with. I did do parts of the removal and install and all the cleaning and general labor. I also rebuilt the fuel and filtering system.
If you wander thru my blog entries here you will see the progression of the project. My only regret is not doing that upgrade ten years sooner!
(My relationship to the that old Universal engine had slowly changed from "enabling" to approaching abusive, as one might put it. It ran reliably, but only with my "learned attention" to its quirks. )

BTW, not quite relevant to the OP questions, but we looked closely at a 1990 E-34-2 with (Saints preserve us!) a Volvo diesel) about 8 years ago. We considered buying it and restoring it, but the engine needed replacing due sea water leaks and damage from poor design.... it was a bit scary. Whole boat showed massive neglect, and the seller refused to budge on price. At all. He wanted a price appropriate to a boat that had been fully maintained and upgraded over the years ---- and he had not put a nickel into it.

The larger galley would have been luxurious, albeit with the tradeoff of no more surfing.

Good luck and I hope this all works out for you.

 

[Pete the Cat]

This is a massive list of engine issues and other interventions (I agree with Loren;s assessment and this lack of attention might have been a deal breaker for me at the first look) and one reason I have come to have contempt and sympathy (simultaneously) for most surveyors.
Contempt:
It is possible, based on my recent experience with BoatUS underwriters, that they would expect you to complete every recommendation of the surveyor before insuring the boat. They seem to have no one at Geico that has much of an idea about boats and what is important and what can be fixed later. Surveyors talking about replacing both Morse cables (!), servicing all the pumps and heat exchangers, and replacing exhaust elbows with no indication of failure (and likely without even running the engine) are making used boats very very expensive to insure. After I fixed such things on a recent purchase, BOAT US required me to pay for a second survey--they would not accept pictures of the work completed. I severed my 30 year relationship with them. Progressive insured both of my boats without a survey.
Sympathy:
Well, boat owners are often not aware of all the things that can go wrong with a boat and need technical help at purchase from someone with experience. And they are used to buying cars that, for the most part, are much more reliable than the cobbled together systems on old production boats and marinized tractor engines, so they may be expecting that kind of certainty in function and reliability. And there are the lawyers. So they tend to put everything they can see as a "problem" with the boat to cover their butts. The newbie is understandably overwhelmed.
I think when folks ask for help in the buying process here we should ask for pictures of the engine bay (top and, particularly bottom) and transmission, coupling etc. as these are where a huge future expense can lie. Also, they show the attitude of the previous owner about maintenance that you can't see elsewhere. In my delivery days, I always asked for pictures of the engine and battery bay before accepting any job--it is an index of maintenance and care of the whole boat.
Off topic, it would be nice to have an insurance company that used surveyor reports responsibly:
To assess the actual danger of the boat sinking or the rig falling over in the near future of intended use and to determine its current real value. The engine failure is unlikely to sink the boat the rig is unlikely to fall over in normal use. It would also be nice if surveyors could put an estimate of work that could or should be done in the future, but is "not required at this time for safe operation under normal circumstance". And figure that into their current market value (instead of just looking at an average of recent sales). My boats, and I suspect some other here, are worth more than average because either one could leave tomorrow for a passage--and that is not average condition. Or we should negotiate a survey cost that includes any follow up survey to confirm that the recommendations had been competed (I really like this idea--brings the surveyor's labor into the costs of his recommendations).
Right now I see a lot of rotting boats in my marina because folks thought they were buying something different from the reality of the costs and attention that older boat ownership entails. And the new ones are $400K+. This is leading to a lot of empty slips here in SF Bay. I sense the idea of boat ownership for the middle class is slipping away with the dissolution of the middle class but accelerated by surveyor self interest. And brokers who are blinded by commissions.
Maybe what we need is what folks can get here: advice and counsel about maintenance from experienced folks.
I apologize for the off topic comments, but it seems right to bring this stuff up as examples arise.

 

[Kenneth K]

I've been going through the details on the surveys. Here's quote with a list, "At this time all the hoses can be replaced, as well as both water pumps and the heat exchanger serviced, and re installed with a new exhaust elbow assembly. While the engine is out, the engine bay can be cleaned properly, a new shaft coupler installed, a new seal at the shift arm of the transmission, and new control and stop cables."

There was a picture of the exhaust hose visibly rusting through (which I can't find). How much of that hose do I buy (not a fan of carbon monoxide poisoning) for an E34?

Thanks for clarifying. I still find it a strange list:
- all the hoses can be replaced: No problem there, and a good idea
- both water pumps and the heat exchanger serviced: What do they mean by serviced? The raw water pump can be rebuilt with a kit. Is this what they are proposing? There is nothing to service on a fresh-water (anti-freeze) pump--are they putting in a new one? By servicing the heat exchanger, I assume they mean boiling it out in an acid bath (a good idea).
- new exhaust elbow assembly: Are they proposing replacing everything between the exhaust flange and the lift muffler? That is typically what needs to be done in an old boat with original exhaust plumbing. Also, your comment about "hose rusting"? Are you referring to metal pipes?
- While the engine is out, the engine bay can be cleaned properly, a new shaft coupler installed, a new seal at the shift arm of the transmission, and new control and stop cables: This is what I find confusing! Up to this point, there is no reason to pull the engine. A new shaft coupler and new control/stop cables (may be good ideas if there are problems with the existing ones) would still normally be done with the engine still in place. Are they suggesting pulling the engine just to clean the engine bay and replace a transmission seal??? I'd definitely get a second opinion on the transmission seal--it sounds foolish to take on all that labor just to replace a single seal. Also, if they pull the engine, are they putting in new motor mounts? A new prop-shaft stuffing box or PSS? (a new stuffing box/PSS are usually done without pulling the engine, btw).

The problem with spending $7K to have all this done is that it still leaves you with an old engine/transmission. How many hours on the engine? Have they done a compression test? Are they proposing adjusting the fuel timing and replacing the injectors? Are the engine and transmission really worth re-moving and re-installing, or are you better off just using this one till it dies and using that $7K on a new engine. A pretty engine compartment isn't going to make this one run any better. I suspect they know how difficult it is to do these (mostly) simple jobs in the cramped quarters of a sailboat, so they want you to pay the extra costs to allow them to do the work in their comfortable shop.

On the other hand, if these estimates are all part of a pre-purchase inspection, it sound like you have a lot of leverage to lower the final purchase price.

 

[Christian Williams]

Prospective owners of our boats have to realize that success relies on personal commitment not only to maintenance but to restoration. The Poster's wife is right, let's pay for some of the initial stuff, but most fixes are on us, and they will be continual. The pride of ownership thing is what makes old sailboats work. Without recognition of the constant attention required they just don't work.

What I mean by that is, if paid attention to only sporadically, the boat won't start, the sails won't work, the lines won;t run through the blocks, and little issues will irritate everybody on board. This on top of such parallel facts such as if you forget the hose to pump up the inflatable the weekend is ruined, or if the engine dies and no spare fuel filter is aboard, or if arriving with four guests the batteries are dead as a doornail. Sailboats just require vast commitment to work.

I think every specimen is more or less the same--stuff needs to be replaced, maybe not today. You just cannot hire people to do it, no matter how attractive that sounds. You can't tell someone, "find all the stuff that's wrong and fix it." There're too many little "stuffs" that only the owner knows about, all interrelated, all part of the ongoing contract with the boat, which is, "restore me to usefulness." It is why people buy new sailboats. For a few years you can just go sailing.

The guy next to me ( an E38) spent $100K upgrading everything, while he sat in the cockpit and watched. I observed from next door, and over two years I got to know a steady progression of young boat mechanics rebuilding his interior and installing elaborate canvas and a roller furling asymm and painting the decks and installing every do-dad known to shoreside man. He had the money, but his slip looked like the shape-up at Home Depot. And while they worked, he couldn't go sailing. He was continually frustrated by waiting between jobs. And then, because Somebody Up There likes to bust our bells, he up and dropped dead a couple of months ago. And now the boat sits, everything fading under marina dust, while the estate tries to figure itself out. (I'll post here if this boat ever gets on the market).

With a 35-year-old boat, I say, expect to do the work, and to enjoy it, and to parcel it out as time and funds permit. It is no fun to have to hire somebody to do anything. And they encounter the same unexpected issues we would, which can stretch a smallest job out for months, and turns out to be paying for frustration.

Everybody here already knows what I'm blabbing on about. I just mean, buy the boat, do most of the work, a challenge you're probably looking forward to, along with having an excuse to buy new tools.

One factor unknown to me is Ray's: the bloody insurance and survey question. I'm out of date on that. If insurance requires fixing everything immediately, my equation doesn't solve.

 

[Pete the Cat]

Thanks for clarifying. I still find it a strange list:
- all the hoses can be replaced: No problem there, and a good idea
- both water pumps and the heat exchanger serviced: What do they mean by serviced? The raw water pump can be rebuilt with a kit. Is this what they are proposing? There is nothing to service on a fresh-water (anti-freeze) pump--are they putting in a new one? By servicing the heat exchanger, I assume they mean boiling it out in an acid bath (a good idea).
- new exhaust elbow assembly: Are they proposing replacing everything between the exhaust flange and the lift muffler? That is typically what needs to be done in an old boat with original exhaust plumbing. Also, your comment about "hose rusting"? Are you referring to metal pipes?
- While the engine is out, the engine bay can be cleaned properly, a new shaft coupler installed, a new seal at the shift arm of the transmission, and new control and stop cables: This is what I find confusing! Up to this point, there is no reason to pull the engine. A new shaft coupler and new control/stop cables (may be good ideas if there are problems with the existing ones) would still normally be done with the engine still in place. Are they suggesting pulling the engine just to clean the engine bay and replace a transmission seal??? I'd definitely get a second opinion on the transmission seal--it sounds foolish to take on all that labor just to replace a single seal. Also, if they pull the engine, are they putting in new motor mounts? A new prop-shaft stuffing box or PSS? (a new stuffing box/PSS are usually done without pulling the engine, btw).

The problem with spending $7K to have all this done is that it still leaves you with an old engine/transmission. How many hours on the engine? Have they done a compression test? Are they proposing adjusting the fuel timing and replacing the injectors? Are the engine and transmission really worth re-moving and re-installing, or are you better off just using this one till it dies and using that $7K on a new engine. A pretty engine compartment isn't going to make this one run any better. I suspect they know how difficult it is to do these (mostly) simple jobs in the cramped quarters of a sailboat, so they want you to pay the extra costs to allow them to do the work in their comfortable shop.

On the other hand, if these estimates are all part of a pre-purchase inspection, it sound like you have a lot of leverage to lower the final purchase price.

 

[Pete the Cat]

I will just say it out loud. This appears to be a crummy survey that is designed more to avoid problems for the surveyor than to do a meaningful assessment of the condition of the boat. Unless there was some visible indication of a failure of those parts, it is simply a maintenance recommendation, not a description of an incipient problem or meaningful statement of condition (which, with actual market value, should be the focus of a real survey) . It is fair to do a background check on a surveyor and I would be curious about this one. He appears to have read Nigel Calder's book, has some familiarity with boats, passed the SAMS or AMS test, paid their fee, and decided he can make a work list for others pass for a survey. I am the recent victim of similar surveyor.

It is a perfect example of why I have come to harbor a general skepticism of surveyors in general. I would like to see someone generate list of competent surveyors and reviews of all in various regions. And it would help if boatowners had some input into the format of surveys. As a pilot we have Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association AOPA as a good advocate but Boat US has become an industry lap dog and seems to do little advocacy for the average boater. Maybe we could get Practical Sailor to do something along those lines? I would welcome the opportunity to provide some input into the format and process. We need experienced boat advisors in the field, but the present process is not working. We are losing the retired, experienced, knowledgeable boat yard managers who used to provide this service. Seems to me they are being replaced by DIYer boaters who read a few books and magazines and passed a written test.

If your boat starts easily, has decent cooling water exhaust discharge, does not over heat and shifts normally, you might want to think through this work list for a bit and go sailing. I would recommend that you do as much of the work yourself to familiarize yourself with the boat. Owning an older boat is a process, not a destination. The work I have seen on this site has been as good or better than the professional work you can buy in most boatyards these days. Hope this surveyor has not caused you problems with getting insurance.

 

[Phr3d]

Unless there was some visible indication of a failure of those parts, it is simply a maintenance recommendation, not a description of an incipient problem or meaningful statement of condition (which, with actual market value, should be the focus of a real survey) .

Thank you for the time and attention to meaningful detail on your response. Responses like yours I'm finding are more and more a lens to interpret the pre-purchase reports through. I do apologize though for the lack of clarity in my post of who the quoted list was from - it was from the mechanic's report, not the from the surveyor.

The survey findings have surprisingly few "A" items: Lifelines, wing nuts on batteries, covers on terminals, a battery box lid, acorn wire-nut fasteners and electrical tape connections, GFCI trip failure, no visual distress signals, smoke detectors, propane leak at the tanks.

The "B" items include: replacing an extension cord with an AC wire, bottom paint, and the shrouds (which are showing rust).

 

[Phr3d]

One factor unknown to me is Ray's: the bloody insurance and survey question. I'm out of date on that. If insurance requires fixing everything immediately, my equation doesn't solve.

I appreciate all the responses on this, the "A and B" findings (see post 56) on the survey are surprisingly few (while the first estimates for rigging and engine work are on the high side).

My take away is this is less of a project with immediate expenses and more a boat we can enjoy and take care of a few things before summer.

 

[Phr3d]

The Poster's wife is right

She loved this post! You should have seen the look on her face when I shared this nugget at dinner with her friends.

 

[Phr3d]

Thanks for clarifying. I still find it a strange list:
...
The problem with spending $7K to have all this done is that it still leaves you with an old engine/transmission. A pretty engine compartment isn't going to make this one run any better.
...
On the other hand, if these estimates are all part of a pre-purchase inspection, it sound like you have a lot of leverage to lower the final purchase price.

These are valuable points. Thank you for helping me wrap my head around the difference between what could be done and what needs to be done.

 

[Phr3d]

finding out where the salt water is getting in. Maybe spray from a mal-adjusted stuffing box?

We are going to the boat tomorrow to try to find answers to questions like these.