Thoughts on Windlasses and Rodes.....

I'm a bit under the weather and sitting home researching the possibility of installing a windlass on my E38. There has been enough written and so much hyperbole with regard to anchors, rode, windlasses, etc. that it literally would fill volumes and volumes..... That said, heres my rambling thoughts:

I don't anchor that often. The reason is not that I don't trust the ground tackle, I do. What I don't trust is my back and my wife's inability to raise/handle the current ground tackle should I become incapacitated. She is much more relaxed on a rented mooring. The current setup is a 35lb CQR with 50ft of 3/8" chain and 210ft of 5/8" three strand nylon. In my limited experience with that setup its like being bolted to the seafloor, it holds extremely well.

Thoughts on rode: Choice of rode seems to dictate what style of windlass is used so I needed to "tackle" that first. I know all chain is the choice of the traditional heavy offshore cruiser. Thats great but the idea of putting 250-300lbs of chain in the bow of my E38 seems like a mistake. In doing some reading the most practical solution would be 60-75ft of chain and then three strand nylon. The idea here is the best of both worlds. The chain for heavy catenary effect, keeping the anchor dug in and for abrasion resistance. Then the nylon would work as a full-time snubber with the ability to let out more scope at will and not having to deal with the required snubber on an all-chain setup.

Windlasses: Horizontal or vertical?
It appears that horizontal models are all-chain only. They would be easier to install but the all-chain setup won't work for me. I suppose that I could haul in the line section of my line/chain rode manually and then place the chain on the gypsy and let the windlass do the last and most difficult part of the job, actually hauling the anchor/chain back aboard when it is being pulled vertically.
Vertical windlasses seem to be the perfect choice but they are more difficult to install. The other issue is to use a line/chain rode with a vertical windlass requires a line-to-chain splice around a single last link at the end of the chain. Again, doing some reading brings mixed opinions on the strength of this method.

Line-to-chain union: The accepted method for attaching a line to an anchor chain is to finish the end of the line with an eye/thimble of stainless or galvanized steel. No one seems to debate the strength of this method. The direct line-to-chain splice where the line is formed much like the eye/thimble method but much more tightly around a single link with no thimble. This is generally done to allow the splice to pass easily through a windlass. The debate rages on how strong this splice is. I did find one actual test where splices were tested to failure. The result indicated that the thimble/eye splice reduced the ultimate strength of the line to 95%. The direct splice reduced the ultimate strength to 75% or so. Still this breaking point is much higher than the stated working load of the chain, shackle, etc. and these pieces were deformed and very close to failure as well. Still, I suppose you could use a standard eye/thimble/shackle setup for ultimate strength and then stop the windlass, pass the union around the capstan/gypsy and then continue with the chain. A hassle, but do-able.

Another concern appears to be the lifespan of a splice. I found no mention of the life of the standard eye/thimble lifespan however on the Ideal windlass website they recommend renewing/redoing the direct line-to-chain splice every 50 uses. That seems a bit excessive to me. Inspect closely for sure but resplicing? Maybe once a season, or twice if you anchor all the time.

The only reason I mentioned the horizontal windlass is I was considering a manual style. Getting the line portion of the rode onboard is fairly easy. Its the chain that sucks. The manual would be cost effective and easy to install. Just a thought.

Ultimately I think it will be a vertical windlass with 75ft of 5/16"HT chain and 5/8 nylon with the direct splice. There are negatives to all setups but this one would allow my wife to handle the anchor if she had to do it alone.

Pardon my ramblings but if anyone has any other input on the topic I would love to hear it!

RT

The hard part seems to be finding a low profile manual windlass, such as this one:

http://en.lewmar.com/products/index.aspx?lang=1&page_id=319

which does not seem to be available anymore, although it had specs for the rode, both for the chain and the 3 strand.

I have yet to build my winch system as a result. There are powered windlasses available with manual options, but they cost a lot of money that I do not really want to spend.

I bought a rode with less chain than you specify. My thinking was along the lines of having a length of chain to avoid damage from rock etc. on the sea bed to the line, with the added benefit of catenary; but rather than carry an extra weight of chain for catenary alone, I would just carry a heavier anchor with greater pull-to-weight benefit.

You raise a good point wrt the chain to line join: in a regularly used anchor, longetivity is more important than one time strength.

Gareth
Freyja E35 #241 1972

Windlass

I've been debating the same issue. I'd like to put in a powered windlass; and having had a boat with a manual windlass, it's my opinion that they aren't worth much. I can haul my 100 feet of 5/16 G4 and 35lb Bruce by hand easier. Pulling a hundred feet of chain one link at a time isn't my idea of fun.

On Kismet we back-up the chain with a couple of hundred feet of 5/8 nylon. I've used both eye spliced thimbles and had one line spliced to the chain. Both work fine; several years on both types with no problems. With a powered windlass, some chafe protection on the splice itself might not be a bad idea.

If we have trouble breaking out an anchor, we just cleat it off and power up the engine, works every time. I managed to break a hand windlass once trying to break an anchor loose. You'd just burn out a powered one trying that.

I was thinking that on our E38, that I would buy a vertical shaft windlass that has a motor system mounted at 90 degrees or so to the shaft. It would need to be a fairly close coupled unit such that I could mount it in the anchor well cover and still close it. (suitably reinforced of course) It would need to be oriented such that the chain would feed fair from my off center anchor roller.

It would require a chain stopper in front of the anchor well and a modified anchor well with suitable drop and depth. The stopper would enable opening the well cover in case of a problem and provide the secure terminal when the anchor is deployed.

As far as the well is concerned, it shouldn't take too much glass work to cut out the forward end of the floor (in front of the bulkhead) and drop it down to somewhere below the existing drain hole. I even dreamed up a vee shaped floor with two drains in the aft corners as well as the front. The Vee'd floor would also serve to prevent 'castleing' of the chain under the hawse hole. I would just glass to the hull and make sure it's very strong and watertight.

The bigger issue is providing enough power. I was thinking that I would mount an additional house battery under the aft end of the Vee berth and run the heavy cables from there but the charging cables need to be nearly as heavy if this battery is part of the house bank. This has the advantage of providing more house power reserve too.

It would also be nice to have the anchor and roller set-up such that when you want to drop anchor, you pull the pin and then the anchor just drops off the roller on it's own weight when you push the down button. I would even want a cockpit mounted remote control. Single handed anchoring would be a snap. (Kind of power-boatey though).

Oh yeah, the other feature would be two high pressure sea water nozzles mounted under the anchor roller such that they blast the mud off as the chain comes up. There'd be two so they could be aimed at the chain from different directions.

Let's see, if I get a great deal on a windlass, say $750, allow $150 to do my own glasswork, spend $75 on chain stopper, $250 or so on a new Grp 31 gell cell, $700 on cables, buy a new anchor rode for maybe $400, do my own wiring and rigging. Ok round up a bit and I'm at $2500 or so. Man, that'll put a dent in the old rum budget.

Needless to say that with the current market conditions, my retirement funds won't allow such an install but I can still dream. Besides it keeps my tummy in trim (not!) Probably just oughta shut up and be grateful that I have the boat and that she's paid for.

Rob,

The old Simpson-Lawrence vertical windlass never worked for me, so I use the manual lift method on my nylon rode, 55 feet of chain, and 33 lb Bruce. I hurt my back on last year's cruise, so your post is timely. There is a winch handle fitting in the top of the windlass, but it is no good if the clutches are gone.

I've got the rode-to-chain splice, all nice and tapered. I like it so far, but I don't have 50 anchorings on it yet, I don't think. Kind of a strange limit to mention, especially to re-do the splice. It makes me wonder if there isn't a bad experience behind that somewhere. I think I smoothed the link with fine sandpaper before doing the splice.

With Capt Ron's guesstimate of $2500 hanging there, why not put a regular 2-speed winch (an old primary) up there with a self tailer? The gypsy for the chain is a problem, but aren't the forces reasonable? Maybe a slightly longer winch handle? I suppose space would be a problem for a larger drum, but the idea of a low profile drum stacked with a chain gypsy is much more useful in the manual mode than my old S-L trip hazard. Naturally, I've never seen anything like that in production, so maybe it's a non-starter for some reason.

Come to think of it, the hard/heavy part of manually lifting an anchor is the chain and anchor. Maybe a chain gypsy on a real winch base is the answer? Pulling in a hundred feet of nylon rode is faster hand-over-hand.

When we have trouble breaking an anchor loose we cleat it off and back up under power and the anchor comes loose. We used to power over it in forward, but backing up also works if there's room behind us.

Clutches in a SL elect windlass?

Did you type clutches? The older models are metal against metal, the slipping on mine would come in when the surfaces were dirty, or if they were lubricated. (PO did that I had to clean it off).

The SL worked wonderfull for night after night of anchoring for over 4 years. Once a year I would replace the seals in the top end, and once I had to replace the bearings... Hence learning to replace the top seals once a year.

Send me a back channel and lets see if we can't get that thing working right for you.

Guy

Yet another suggestion

Glad I saw this thread because for me too it's a timely one. I've been giving a lot of thought on how and what kind of windlass to install on my E-32 III. Compared to your 38s my 32 has a different anchor locker setup. To be precise and to the point, there is no real good way to install a windlass in the anchor locker or have the rope/chain rode feed into the locker. I'm sure it probably can be done with enough money and remodeling of the locker area and substructure itself but I wanted a simpler solution.

That was to simply install a vertical windlass, with a capstan/gypsy combination, just behind the locker on the foredeck. To deploy the anchor I would simply let the anchor loose and then let out the rode by hand till I had enough scope and then tie it off to a forward cleat. That's what I do now. To retrieve the anchor I would wrap the rope rode around the capstan and then winch it in, tailing it off into the locker, till I got to the chain. Then I'd do a half wrap around the gypsy and winch the chain in again allowing it to drop into the locker.

Problem was finding a capstan/gypsy windlass that could do it. Most require that the windlass be mounted to drop the chain into the locker. I couldn't find a Lemar windlass to fit the bill. But I did find a "Quick - Rider 700" windlass that can do the job. http://www.quickitaly.com/?lng=us&ms1=10&ms2=7&ms3=31&ms4=59&cs1=1&cs2=1&mvp=123&stp=td

Yes, I can't work it all from the cockpit but I don't see that as a deal breaker. The installation will be a lot simpler then modifying the locker to take a windlass. Yes, these units are expensive and so I'm still looking for another similar and cheaper windlass that does the same thing.

That all said I got a tip from a long time cruiser in my marina. He has a catamaran that he and his wife sail up and down the ICW. He mounted a simple power winch just behind his anchor locker. When he hauls the anchor in he wraps the rope rode around the drum and tails it off into the locker and when he gets to the chain he just continues keep it wrapped and trailing off into the locker. He said that, yes, the chain has scratched the drum but it's no big deal. I actually can't see this option working when it comes to a heavy load because the chain would slip, it seems to me.

Anyway, I just thought I'd had a little more to this conversation.

I did not see clutches

but I typed clutches. When I get to that on the to-do list I may contact you to see if it's worth saving. It's a one-way - no reverse. Thanks Guy.

That windlass you referenced is a big one. Mine is a different configuration (direct drive?) so less weight and space below decks. A neighbor of mine in the marina installed a horizontal one in front of the locker, but I don't think the E-boats could be modified for that. He has a late model J120 and an all-chain rode.

The tailing of a nylon rode into the locker from a windlass aft of the locker seems like it might take some practice. I have a anchor locker washdown pump that I seldom need to use, but I like the idea of an automated spray. Running them both would take some amps out of the house bank.

The angled device that strips the chain out of the gypsy is positioned on mine to dump it into the locker, but it was missing. Without it the chain gets very gnarled up. I found the device recently in the spares kit. Now I need to find screws.

Craig post a photo of your windlass....

I have one that is in storage that I suspect is similar, and I need a good reason to go through there are throw out a bunch of stuff anyway, and taking a series of break down photos for you would be as valid as any.

Guy

Tom's windlass solution

Below is a link to a posting by member Tom Metzger that shows a "behind the anchor locker" installation on his E-34 that I'll probably end up doing to my E-32. I wrote to him about it and he tells me that he installed a Lewmar windlass that he found cheap on EBay. (Go Tom!)

http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showpost.php?p=12944&postcount=6

Lots of good stuff here. CaptnNero did exactly want I want to do on his E34. Separate anchor locker, watertight, etc. Thats pretty much what I want. Good windlasses are spendy but what on a boat isn't?

My back is not what is used to be. I need it for work so killing it on a boating trip is not smart.

RT

voltage drop

On Tom Metzger's installation I wonder what the voltage drop is from the house bank to the v-berth; I measure a run of about 22'. If i were an electrical engineer I'm sure i could figure it for myself.

Voltage drop on long runs.

I can't tell you what the voltage drop is but can say that I paid more for two 32 foot lengths of 1/0 wire than I did when I bought the 1979 used, bronze, vertical wildcat/capstan windlass. My batteries are in the port lazarette and the run I made was to the starboard side of the boat aft of the engine and then all the way to the anchor locker. That was the recommended gauge for the length of the run and the current draw of my Ideal MCW windlass as told me by Cliffe, the third generation owner of Ideal. Glyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey, CA

Craig, Mischief Maker has a windlass installed in the anchor locker. You are welcome to come down and look, but you may have to help consume some Kona beer.
Harold

Wire Sizes

This should help all of you out. You can use the formula at the bottom or you can use the chart at the top.

Guy

What's wrong with this picture?

This is the best picture of the unit I can find, Guy. I don't have any good ones of the box below the deck in my maintenance archive. I've never opened it. It's basically a cube I think.

I'd come down and drink beer with you if you just let me in out of the rain, Harold. I didn't know you had a windlass in the locker, so I'd like to see it. I haven't properly mourned the end of the Cubs and White Sox post seasons, yet either.

Rob mentioned his wife's ability to lift the ground tackle as a limitation and I tend to agree - it's a question. My wife has been suggesting that she try hauling in the anchor and I think I'll take her up on it sometime. It would be good to see how big a deal it is for her. A heavy pair of gloves and some coaching is all she needs. If she can't do it in ordinary conditions then the windlass maybe moves up in priority. Does anyone share this particular duty with their wife? Getting the chain in by hand is a problem for me sometimes.

Is there any reason that the windlass has to be on the centerline? I've never seen a roller that turned the rode after getting it aboard, but an offset unit kind of intrigues me. Submerging it in the locker seems best though.

Yep, thats the one

Great little windlass, should work well for you.

So you are going to have to take apart the top end and do some serious cleaning.

I was going to write an article once on how to rebuild a windlass, never got around to anything but the photos... Let me see what I can dig up, and send you something back channel.

Send me a message with through here with your e-mail, and we should be able to get you set up and working.... Without spending any money. Maybe a few dollars for some solvents, but that should be about it.

Guy
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