Rudder Modification for an E38?

I have a E-38 and have had problems steering the boat down wind or on a broad reach in wind speeds of 20 knots or more. The boat is very hard to control and demands constant correction to the tendancy of rounding up.

I talked to one E-38 owner that mentioned he has problems also, and that he had heard that the the rudder needed to be modified by adding approximately 1 foot.

Has anyone experienced these problems and or made any modifications to overcome them??


Tracey

I haven't really noticed that on my shoal draft 1989 E-38. Is yours an earlier model? Deep draft?

My rudder is just a few inches less draft than my keel, so adding a foot to it would cause me to ground out first on the rudder - NOT a pleasant thought!

I see the problem(s) from a slightly different angle (of heel)...
You mention roundups while reaching in heavy air and also running.

When going downwind, you may have to change down sail area a bit sooner. Your design, like a jillion others from that era, has an IOR-influenced stern section. It likes to roll downwind if driven hard. Since it was never mean't to plane or be stable in surfing mode, you may have to slow down a bit. For comparison, look at the stern section of a J boat, or an Express or Olson. Notice that the stern is flatter and wider. Those boats were built to surf off the wind.

As to reaching, you are basically getting turned to weather by the hull shape as the boat heels. When reaching in big winds, reef sooner, let the main out more, generally reduce area to keep her on her feet. And, flatten the main.
If you are reaching with a full main or with the first reef, you may find that the main is too full -- maybe stretched to much by years and usage.

At 20 knots plus, I would expect to see one good reef in the main, and get that foot pulled out tight...
For a headsail I would want no more than a 110%. Note that if you reduce the headsail by rolling it in, the shape is not optimal, and will contribute to more heeling.
I have a modern 135 reefable genny, and in these conditions (rolled in 3 rolls) it is ok, but the shape is compromised some.

If you really want to change the rudder, do it right. Have the design work done by an NA before you have a new one fabbed up. Perhaps the existing ruddershaft has enough reserve strength for the extra load, but I would not quickly assume such...

I had a conversation about rudders with a local boatbuilder after I got our Olson 34; I had heard of someone putting a larger rudder on a couple of Olsons "for better control". The local builder, Steve Rander at Schooner Creek Boatworks, told me to save my money and learn to trim the sails to solve helm problems! This from the guy who routinely tiller-steers his ultralight 70 foot sloop to Hawaii and back. He often beats the wealthy pros, to boot!

Please Note: I am not casting dispersions on your helming. Really! But over the decades I have often found that the most boat speed on my boats a can be found by adjusting "the nut on the helm".


Please let us know what you decide to do. This is interesting stuff. If anyone wants to see the eliptical rudder and keel on our Olson, I have some new pics I could post, FWIW.

Fair winds,

Loren
Olson 34 #8

I would agree with Loren. Ericson's "ain't no downwind sleds".
I did extend the rudder on my old 39 after consulting the
NA to try to correct downwind oscillations and other bad
behaviors. The boat did behave somewhat better-particularly
under power in docking situations but I can't reccommend
this mod as a cure all. Old school IOR boats are typically
twitchy downwind when it pipes up. How you handle
the sails and helm are the biggest factors.

Martin

Rudder Modifications

I was under the impression that over the years the rudder had been modified. I have a 1989 Ericson 38 and have had no problems with control. The boat does like to heel but that can be adjusted with trim.

When I bought our E34 (1990) it had two headsails: 130% and a 145%. I furled them when it got above 25 knots of wind, but the shape was so bad that I usually ended up motorsailing with just the reefed main and no jib. A local sailmaker made me a 90% jib and a cruising spinnaker (gennaker). I got him to put two round black spots on the foot of the 90% jib, and I use them as first reef and maximum reef. The results have been spectacular. The rig balances more easily, I start reefing when I go over more than 15 degrees and I am keeping up close to hullspeed even in the worst blows.
I am fine in a following sea with regard to tracking and steering. If it is windy, 2O or more, I put up the 145% genoa with no main. I have sailed on a friends E28 plus, and if you have the wind aft and have not reefed it way down you slew around wildly.

I have a 1984 E38 that I sail between Santa Barbara and Santa Cruz Island-lots of wind above 20kts. I have come to learn that the secret to enjoyable, comfortable sailing on all points of sail with my E38 is to reduce sail early (this took me several years of unstable, all over the ocean, sailing to figure out). So now, when the wind pipes up I often put a double reef in the main. When it comes up even more, I roll up the jib entirely and rig my removeable inner stay and hank on a small bullet proof jib (used to be a 100% jib for a Catalina 38). I have sailed comfortably and controllably with this set up in 30+ kts winds. It amazes me how docile the E38 becomes in lots of wind when you reduce sail appropriately. What's even more amazing to me is that the boat is still sailing really fast! Captain Peter

Rudder re-design

I have an E37 and have been sailing and living aboard for eight years. It has been brought to my attention that the rudder has been re-dsigned as have other rudders from that era. An owner of a Ranger 37 re-designed his rudder, which is very similar to the E37, by extending it forward , down and back two inches. I know him to be very successful racing and he claims the handling improved incredibly with that modification. There has been an article on the same subject in Ocean navigator concerning the re-design and modification on a P 40 with very similar profiles and handling problems. In that case the rudder leading edge was straightened as was the trailing edge creating a more balanced and powerful shape. The owner described the differences as being very much worth the effort. The rudder for the E37 and no doubt the E38 Has been re-designed, I was hoping to find out by whom here in this forum. I plan on going offshore and consider the rudder modification as a priority. My boat sailed around the world as 'Egregious', which can be read about in the book Storm Passage by Web Chiles. Any improvement to rudder design that would ease the load on the Aries self steering system will be a huge improvement.

Control issues

I know this is an old thread, but I was doing some surfing through the archives and saw this one..Jeanne's comment about not having any problems prompted me to clear up this issue.


Generally speaking, when we talk about these problems we are referring to a racing configuration-or nearly so. If the boat has a genoa, furled genoa and reefed main-of course there are no problems. The control problems most of us are talking about are downwind, big air, and spinnaker. In these conditions, and as Martin says, the 37,39,46 in particluar, but also the 32--2/35-2 and the newer 32,35,38 line all share a smallish rudder and a hull shape which is not ideal for heavy downwind sailing with a spinnaker.

They are similar to their counterparts of the era in that they are not alone in this respect, but many more modern boats-including the Olson/Ericson boats, have a wider, more powerful stern section with less "pinching" in the back end, and hence do not roll as badly when pressed downwind, and are more responsive and generally easier to steer under these conditions..

But for cruising, once the right sail combination has been set, any of these boats will steer adequately. For serious offshore cruising however, where the potential exists for prolonged running in very heavy air-even without a kite-boats of this vintage will still benefit from the rudder mods discussed.

"Good night, and good luck"

S

E39 mods

OK so this got me thinking. The Previous owner of my E39 did change the rudder to an elliptical shape. I've not compaired the areas of the original rudder to the "new" one.

Does anyone have an original rudder specification (height width area etc) for an E39?

I do have photos of the "new" rudder that I can approximate the sizes of till I next get it out of the water.


Last time I came down the (Washington) coast I spent the night broad reaching in 20 to 25 kt winds. Boat speed was over 10 kts for more than 6 hours with peaks in the 12.5 kt region. Not really surfing but flying none the less.

THe boat was very well behaved and under control of the autopilot the whole way. Single reef main and 135% roller down at about 110%.

Very nice ride.

rudders

Foss Foam and/or Steve Brown (Finco Fab) have the Ericson rudder molds, and could likely tell you the oriiginal sizes, or of course, if anyone has the original drawings in their "boat book", the could scale it off and just read the numbers to you.

Both of those suppliers are in the Costa Mesa/Santa Ana area of SoCal.

Either way, if you do go the effort of a new one-by all means add some area-yes the shape can certainly be improved, and should be if you want to "step up", but a significant part of the improvement will come from a slightly deeper and overall larger blade down there. You will have better, more precise control, speed, and pointing ability.

As has been said before, if you are starting from scratch, get a good NA to draw it up for you (BK of course, and Alan Andrews draws some great stuff as well-he ois in Long Beach). I think Finco may already have something drawn up, which would save some of the design fee-but it may be a few years old-an improvement to be sure, but maybe not the latest thing.

Sounds like an awesome ride down the coast!

S

Photo of eliptical E39 rudder

The prior owner was a naval archatect and this was the rudder he came up with for my E39.

The boat tracks well and does not feel under ruddered. It does not back well but that could be for many reasons. Do any E39 back well?

As for the trip down the coast. What a ride.

deep rudder

Not sure about a 6' deep rudder-maybe yours was already modified..that is strange-unless you have the shoal keel?

In any case, this hull shape is simply not at its' best reaching/running in heavy air with a lot of sail. The trick(for cruising) is to get the sail off until it is manageable-and you can get it to balance just fine.

However, the rudder mods DO help this condition, and part of it is deeper, part of it is more cord, and a big part is how it touches the hull(at least for the older boats-which I think do not have skegs in front)-see my post with a quote from Alan Andrews on the work he did for "Cantata", a 38 which was raced extensively (and successfully-even when I was aboard!) in SoCal..
Cheers,

Standard rudder?

This is a good discussion, but I don't know what a standard E38 rudder looks like. Is this the standard rudder for an early E38? This is my boat - hull #20. I ask because the boat has been sailed offshore (up and down the west coast) and I have a receipt for a Foss Foam rudder in the paperwork from the previous owner.

Thanks,

here's ours, hull #262. With the wing keel, we have the same issue as Steve... we'd run aground rudder first if we put too much more on...
Chris

FWIW my rudder looks like both of yours. I have the 6.5' deep keel 38 from 1989. Are you able to drop the rudder when on the hard with the wing keel? Looks like you would not be able to lower it enough. Pilot Project is that a deep keel version?

"Try not to stare!"

Oh Good Golly, Now we have the Men of Ericson comparing their Rudders!
Time for the Olson to enter the boatyard locker room.
Check out this shapely beauty...


Loren
1988 Olson 34 Fresh Air

This is great

These 3 shots are so telling. The Pilot Project rudder sure looks deeper than the on the shoal draft/wing keel boat-I bet the rudder was shortened just for this reason-the original rudder WOULD hit first.

So, on boats with that keel, you would have a problem going with a deeper rudder-but this is probably the boat that needs it most.

I have never sailed any of the shoal draft boats in race mode (or much at all, to be honest)-so all of my control/handling comments have to do with the deep keel models.

It seems very clear that the shoal keel/short rudder would be much harder to handle when pressed hard (of course, this is a strictly cruising configuration so this should not matter-these owners have no reason to press the boats like a race boat might).

Finally, Loren's rudder looks like the rudders Alan did for the 38's I raced on-the top of the rudder is in contact with the hull(as close as it can be without rubbing), which reduces the end plate effect when the rudder is turned. On the "stock" boats, once you turn the rudder (which is hung under that "semi-skeg"), there is a large gap between the top of the rudder and the hull, which reduces steering effectiveness.

The modification removes that skeg-like thingy, and the whole thing looks a lot like Lorens rudder (I know it is a Schumacher/E 34!)-which yields much better controlability.

Thanks for these posts-they are a graphic explanation of what has been discussed here!!
Cheers,
S

Now I want to drive a bigger rudder!

We put ours through as many of the paces as we can given our area and our crew availability... She's never seen more than about 4-5 ft seas with us on her, but I'd really be curious to drive a deeper rudder in a big blow.
I drove the Ben 50 on vacation this spring DDW with bigger waves and she acted like the big pig she was... but I'd be curious--- maybe I'll have to hook up with Ted
Chris

(who used to have boat envy- now has rudder envy... sheesh)

We do have our fragile egos.

Pilot Project's keel is the deep draft fin (6' 6"). It looks to me like Sequoia and Pilot Project have the same rudder. Could be an illusion. Maybe I'll print the photos and scale them.

We have noticed a little bit of a squirrelly tendency in about 20 knots and our little 3 foot Puget Sound swells, wing-on-wing with a full main and a poled out 155 jib. We've only been in those conditions a couple times. No real danger of broach or rounding up. We are not rigged for a spinnaker.

I see what you mean about losing the end-plate benefit as soon as the rudder gets much angle during turns. Even with the deep keel I would hesitate to extend the rudder downward, but extending the top to regain end-plate effect seems like a good idea if you need it.

Very interesting.