How much do you spend....?

In reflecting on last year's boat maintenance costs, and planning a retirement budget, I am wondering how much most of you generally budget/spend (I know there's probably a difference ) on boat maintenance, excluding insurance, moorage fees, fuel and purchase of new sails or engine rebuild/replacement. I'm mainly interested in the cost of repairs and preventive maintenance--haulout, bottom paint, electrical, plumbing, wax, varnish, lines, blocks, adding/replacing minor equipment, etc.

I know this varies according to boat size, age, condition, past maintenance, how much you do yourself, etc., but I am looking for ballpark information.

In my case, my boat is a 1984 Ericson 30+ in good condition, with most major parts either in good condition or having been replaced in recent years. However, although I am good at cosmetic stuff (waxing, varnishing, lubricating stuff, replacing lines, tightening nuts/bolts, spotting problems, etc.) I am not good at mechanical, technical repairs, so end up hiring someone to do those.

I am thinking that around $1500 - $2,000 per year should be enough, given my exclusions mentioned above. Any thoughts based on your experience?

Thanks for any responses.

Frank.

If you go cruising, be prepared for maintenace and problems to arise more frequently, since the boat will probably be getting much heavier use than the typical floating condo. I think the big wildcard will be the hired work, since it seems that can easily hit $1000 for a single job, on engine work, fiberglass work, rigging, that sort of thing.

Also, if you're cruising to warmer places things like ground tackle, running rigging, and standing rigging will wear out faster. So you may need to replace lines every 2-3 years, instead of every 5. That's probably at least $500 right there. (albeit not every year). And I think I've heard a rough life expectancy of 5-10 years for standing rigging in the tropics, as opposed to 15-20 in more temperate climates. Depending on how long you plan to cruise, it might be wise to prorate some of these replacements and account for a fraction of them each year. Maybe the same with some electronics, especially if some of them are older or are of the short-lived variety.

I have heard 3% to 5% of the value of the boat spent every year just maintaining the existing systems. This doesn't cover upgrades. Regarding my budget well..... Whats the limit on my credit card? Take a look at my posts and you'll see what I mean. RT

Thanks for the replies so far. Rob, I have also heard about 5% the value of the boat to maintain existing systems--but while that may be a good beginning guideline, as the boat ages and needs more repairs, the value goes down but the repair costs would go up, as compared with a newer boat of higher value, needing less repairs.

Where this ratio makes sense, I think, is in relation to boat size, where regardless of age, I would anticipate that an Ericson 38 compared to an Ericson 30 would be more expensive to maintain due to the higher cost of larger equipment (e.g. winches), so 5% of average value of an Ericson 38 compared to 5% of an average Ericson 30 might give a good estimate of the difference in maintenance between two such boats.

But I haven't found any estimates that take into account condition and age of the boat. In the auto world, I have read reports (maybe now dated) that estimate about $800 in average annual repair costs for a 4 - 8 year old car with average mileage, increasing to about $1,200 for a car older than 10 years. My experience with cars has been in this range, so I'm now looking for something similar for boats--though I know they vary more than cars. But within the Ericson community, where the initial quality is similar, and everyone takes good care of their boats , maybe there is a similar average.

Looking forward to more responses.

Frank.

As JP Morgan is reputed to have said when asked the cost to operate his yacht "If you have to ask, you can't afford it."

As a dedicated Quicken user I call tell you that in the last 6 years I have spent (soup to nuts - from boat club (not a very fancy one at that), to storage to repairs), just a few dollars short of $100,000 and I haven't even gotten the boat painted yet!

The kayak in my avatar is looking better every day.

I have actually given this a bit of thought beyond my first post. The problem of older boat ownership is the uphill battle to replace or refurbish almost everything many times due to years of deferred maintenence. I have spent money like a drunken lottery winner last season to try and get my E38 to where I think it should be. I am not done, but not far either. Eventually the maintenence cost should be similar to a "new" boat since replacing everything will just about make it so. I am guessing that $2500/year would cover the E38 once the upgrading is complete. If budget for that, then holding any funds leftover each year, any excess will cover the inevitable "big problem". Your figure being slightly less sounds pretty appropriate to me. RT

So much depends on where you're starting out with your boat. As in how good a condition it's in presently. And how much are you going to sail per year. I will be in year #6 this next summer with Escapade. Getting down to the minor projects. Rebedding chain plates even though they haven't started leaking yet, etc. This is after doing a complete bottom job, new standing & running rigging, new sails, new dodger & bimini, new instruments, etc. I'm affraid to total the amount I've spent and did most of the work myself (only the sails & canvas work were done outside).
Starting from this point I shouldn't have to spend more than $1,000. per year for the next 4 or 5 years. The $100,000 Goeff talks about probably is pretty close to what we spent (WOW!!). I guess it really is going to depend on how much you actually use the boat. They really are large plastic holes in the water that you pour enormous amounts of cash into. Or as a buddy's boats plaque says. "Boats are like women. It's not the hull that's expensive, it's the rigging!"
Have fun & sail fast
Bud E34 "Escapade"

Thanks for the additional replies. I can see how needing to renovate a boat that has fallen behind in regular maintenance will require a much higher budget, not only to catch up, but I suspect that some jobs will be more expensive than if they had been done at the right time earlier. I am still a bit amazed that you guys have spent that kind of money getting your boats into shape--maybe I'm just lucky so far; if so, I hope that continues.

So far in year one of my 1984 Ericson 30+, repairs have cost around $2500, not including moorage, insurance and other non-repair related costs; but I have done a number of repairs that shouldn't need repeating for a number of years. I know there will be others to take their place, but barring unforeseen things, I think the routine stuff should be more like $1500 per year, with occasional larger expenses for sails or engine repair/replacement--sails are still in good shape and engine only has slightly under 600 hours, so should run a long time yet with proper maintenance. I am lucky that the previous owner pampered the boat and replaced most of the larger cost items (sails, standing rigging, rudder repair, electronics, etc.).

Geoff, while I agree to some extent with your comment about not being able to afford it if you have to ask, in my case I am trying to decide the timing of my retirement, so am projecting a budget for about 25 - 30 years, and balancing the boat with other priorities like travel, replacement vehicles, still a couple family/kids weddings, etc.

So it is important to me to get this right to the extent possible--knowing it is all a bit of a "crap shoot". Therefore, any additional replies are welcome.

Thanks,
Frank.

How much?

I was surprised at how high the number was when I tallied everything to respond to this thread. (BTW, the number did include about $15k in boat payments). I have kept my boat in good, but hardly pristine condition. For example, all the instruments are still the original Datamarines. Unfortunately, keeping a boat is a lot more expensive than we think . . . when you add in all the ancillary costs for insurance, etc.

Dollars vs Tiller Time

Since we all have a finite amount of resource to spend, this topic seems to come along on a regular basis. IMO: EVery boat will have its own set of annual $$ numbers -- based on prior upkeep and level of preventative maintenance.

Approaching this from another viewpoint, it might be helpful to look at the $$$ by intended use of the boat.
1) Day-sailing expenses, 2) Overnighting requirements, 3) self sufficiency for two to four weeks at a time.

I have noticed that #1 requires a level of expenditure only enough for rig, sails, and some sort of aux. engine. At the second level one gets into rudimentary cooking, water supply system, and maybe a permanently-installed toilet (with attendant plumbing). At #3 you have all the stuff that any "second home" would need, plus the additional requirement of being able to jury rig fixes to stuff until you can return to a port with a chandlery or a boatyard. Note that this way above what you might need even for a vacation A-frame up the mountains where you can almost always drive to a Home Depot in the nearest city, and a small generator set is the only 'self sufficiency" device you normally need for a day or three.

Notice that the "R word" (racing...) is left out. If you enter a race with your boat, with or without lots of cruising amenities, you are by definition a Racer -- it's just sailing with a competitive purpose factored in...


Based on this methodology, any Ericson can be used only for Use #1, and if the next owner wants it for Use #3, he/she will have to initially pump into it some big dollars. I used to think that the size of the boat neatly assigned it into its "usage niche" but then I found a lot a boats in the 35 to 40 foot range were just owned as day sailors that did all their social time at the dock.


The wild card in repair/maintenance costs is just how far the prior owner let the boat go (many years of neglect, sometimes) while he/she slowly made up his mind to sell it, and this is commonly many years after he stopped using or maintaining it.

When we spent a year shopping for the boat we now own, we saw extremely few boats on the market that were in "turn key" condition. Rarer than the proverbial hen's tooth.

For us this was a painful lesson -- we had sold a boat that was in excellent condition, and about that same time a friend sold his E-27 that was also in turn key condition. Couple of years ago another couple we know sold their beautiful E-27 because they needed a larger boat for their growing family -- and sure enough they ended up with a 36 foot project boat.

Based on an admittedly-biased data set, I would say that E-27 owners are strong on both upkeep and usage!


Hmmm.... Not sure if these ramblings have moved this thread along... or just squandered some zeros and ones.
:rolleyes_d:

From stormy Portland, OR

Loren
ps: here is the link to a related and thoughtful prior thread on this site: http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?t=3601&referrerid=28

we've found that there are generally 1-2 major repair/replace type things per year. Just as a for instance- this past summer saw our exhaust elbow need replaced... $1200 including labor. Plus, our dodger windows were shot- another $1000. So we were at $2200 before we even really started. Add to that all new running rigging (about $500), then a basic bottom paint, mid season dive for bottom cleaning, 2 new blocks, new pump, etc...
Now we're starting 2007 with new standing rigging (around $2200) plus painting the mast (I'm guessing around $400-500 in materials- time is mine), basic bottom paint...


So I'd say just keeping up would average about $4k.
I think that if we had a year without any major needs, we'd replace a sail- so it just never ends. Plus, all of this would be much worse if we didn't do most of the work ourselves.

Chris

Well said Loren! I was trying to compose the "three uses" idea but couldn't get it down to text. The other point I would like to make is that, IMHO, a well-loved and well maintained boat SHOULD sell more easily than a project. Notice that I didn't say it would neccesarily sell for more money.... I do believe it will be easier to sell when the time comes. The prospective buyer should easily recognize a "turn key" boat and make an offer quickly since there are so few available. Does this justify the cash outlay? I guess that depends on what your priorities are. After all the work I have done on my E38 I would like to think it would sell easily for what I paid. Time will tell. RT

Thanks, Loren. I think you have added a significant consideration, with the differences in how boats are used--from single day sailing to several months cruising (not to mentione the R-racing word!). And of course the degree of prior maintenance or neglect is a huge factor. And no question that the cost never ends as there is always something that needs replacing or upgrading at the end of it's lifespan.

But setting aside project boat, or makeover/renovation considerations, it seems to me that a boat in good condition should be able to be maintained with around $2,000 in annual repair/maintenance, not counting the major expenditures for new sails, engine replacement or "new toys" like adding microwaves, televisions, latest GPS/computer, etc.

Frank.