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Is a <$18,000 Ericson 38 a Financial Trap?

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Darn!

Sorry for the disappointment!
That broker, at some point, is going to be getting acquainted with an attorney. Probably not yours, but one representing a less-forgiving person...
You are out time and travel expense, and some "mental anguish" as well! :oops:

Keep looking and keep your net spread widely. Something always turns up.

(We had an offer refused on a clean E-32/200 a day or so before finding our Olson - same broker and he was an honest guy.)

There is a great quote from the movie Platoon that addresses staying prepared.. but it's too crude to quote here...)
:)

edit: that brokerage ad is still up. Not a company to trust. At all.
 
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bgary

Advanced Beginner
Blogs Author
Has anyone gone through a broker to make an Ericson purchase?

i did. Probably wasn’t necessary, given the quality of the boat and the reputation of the seller, but given that I was unfamiliar with the process and, in my case, 1000 miles away from the boat, it made sense to have someone local who could shepherd me thru the details of the process, answer my (many) questions, handle the paperwork and coordinate things like survey and title transfer.

$.02
Bruce
 

GrandpaSteve

Sustaining Member
I did, and the broker treated me as well as he would have if I were buying a $150,000 boat vs. a $30,000 boat. I was happy to have the broker to talk to as this was my first boat purchase. He explained to me that he wanted to make sure I considered him when it is time to buy my next boat (not that there will be a next boat).
 
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csoule13

Member III
Mike - Good thread, a a good learning experience so far. I chuckled at the outcome simply because it was well told.

A question for you I haven't seen asked yet. You said something along the lines of wanting a boat of this size because your family wants certain comforts. I used to do airplanes as a hobby, and that world is littered with people who boat a six seat airplane with a huge honkin' engine(or two engines!) with visions of flying their family and friends on great adventures. Those people almost always ended up writing about having the time and expense of an aircraft that was never used as intended, or at least not enough to make it worth the financial output. They bought an airplane for the 10% part of usage, not the 90%.

I wonder if you had considered this for your boat purchase. It is a huge leap up in boat sizes on time, effort, money, insurance, slip fee, system complexity between the major sizes. I have a Cape Dory 27, my old man has an Ericson 30+. We've been aboard the 32 foot version of each of our boats, and it's a big difference(to us).

So, why a 38 and not a 32? Are you sure the family is really going to be onboard as much as they've suggested? Maybe yes, in which case, that's fantastic. But having to figure out how to singlehand a 38 footer vs a smaller boat vs spending the weekend tied to the dock is something to keep in mind.

Chris
1978 Cape Dory 27
1983 Ericson 30+(my Dad's boat)
 
L

Leslie Newman

Guest
I'm going to jump in here because I did go up in size, wanting more room in the cabin. I sold a 33' CAL and purchased my E-380 (Pacific Seacraft version of the E38). My 33' was really easy to single hand. Moving up to the 38' Ericson, I find it is just as easy to manage the boat by myself, provided I have an autopilot. Autopilot is not a must, but definitely makes single handing much easier. The head sail is much larger than the CAL, but it is a 135% and rolling it in is not bad. I installed Barton Marine slab reefing on the boom. I have to go to the mast to reef, but I really like the system and I can reef quickly, especially with a stack pack, the sail just lays in there.

I think you get familiar with a boat and the more you learn it of course the less intimidating it is. Easier things get.

We are definitely liking the added cabin space, separate shower. And I like having just a little bit larger boat all around. The boat is still very easy to maneuver. I find I can back it into the slip as easily as I did the CAL.

The larger boat seems to handle rougher conditions better. Plus the flared bow keeps the cockpit drier than did the CAL.

The slip for our boat is the same slip cost, as the 33' and 38' fit the same slip at our marina. Takes 1 gallon of bottom paint.
It does cost me 5 more feet of boat length when we get a transient slip, or get a haul out. Insurance I think doubled, but the Ericson is newer than our previous CAL, as well as larger and purchase price was higher, replacement cost higher.

As for owning a 38' boat, I have no regrets moving up from the 33'.
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
I'm exploring the topic of moving up in size in a few videos on YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZ2iaRhnQZk&t=527s

I agree that the 38 isn't intimidating compared to 30-footers, its just bigger, heavier, somewhat more expensive to berth and maintain, and--not quite as much fun to sail.

I still think, for shorthanded sailing, a boat in the 32-foot range is about right for me.
 
L

Leslie Newman

Guest
I'm exploring the topic of moving up in size in a few videos on YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZ2iaRhnQZk&t=527s

I agree that the 38 isn't intimidating compared to 30-footers, its just bigger, heavier, somewhat more expensive to berth and maintain, and--not quite as much fun to sail.

I still think, for shorthanded sailing, a boat in the 32-foot range is about right for me.

Not as much fun! I disagree. But that is why there are so many length boats. Something for everyone.

Here is Osprey on the way to Onancock earlier this year. 17 - 20 knot winds, with some gusts.
Videos are a bit boring. Well, a lot boring, but I love seeing sailboats underway.
GoPro attached to a PVC pipe clamped to the push pit. Pipe wobbles sometimes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qq2dKwtwv8s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBK9nVQ9JuM
 
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Mblace

Member II
I can totally relate to the airplane example a few replies back - my exact experience - and other than annuals, insurance and general maintenance (it was in my own hangar) I was at least able to sell it for what I paid 8 years later - so the true cost was maybe $400 an hour to fly - because I flew it a lot less than I had planned. Expensive hobby. Boats are not all that much different, though. Hard to place a value on the pleasure you get from sailing (or working on) a sailboat. I'd say buy the best boat you can find (general condition and maintenance history) in the size range you want for what you're comfortable paying - but keep in mind that acquisition cost and ownership cost are largely unrelated - newer more expensive boats cost less to upgrade but depreciate faster, cost more to insure, and having newer gear means you will not be as inclined to upgrade with the things you want. Or buy a solid older boat at a lower price and spend wisely on meaningful upgrades, invest your time to make it what you want, and you'll be a lot happier. But beware the "great deal" because they rarely are.

I just bought a well-loved, very solid and fairly priced E25, mainly because I need to be able to trailer it between Maine and my landlocked home in Western MD, and am planning to use it as a daysailer to teach my grandkids how to sail. Maybe a little offshore stuff on nice days, and maybe some poking around in the Chesapeake on the weekends when not in ME. So for me (having been warned by the boss to not repeat the "big" airplane experience) this is the perfect boat. As for brokers - caveat emptor - I have had great experiences and disasters buying cars, planes, etc. thru "dealers", "brokers" - birds of a feather. I have had better luck with owners selling on Craigslist or thru local ads - even word of mouth and referrals by friends. Still, have to hope for the best but be prepared for the worst (unexpected grimy old guys notwithstanding) - just go armed with knowledge and a willingness to walk away if you get a bad feeling. A forum like this is really helpful in getting advice (sometimes tongue-in-cheek) and anecdotes from personal experience. Good luck!
 

gabriel

Live free or die hard
Understood, love the example!



I really appreciate the practical walk-through. I'm very grateful to be a part of this community. It seems to be the most knowledgeable group of sailors/handymen on the Internet! I'm learning so much and already applying it:

This afternoon, I went to visit the above yacht world listing in person. After driving two hours to the marina, I finally was able to locate the three-year-on-the-hard, dormant E38 yacht, "Mel's Angel".

As I ascended up the ladder to make my way to the cockpit, I begin to hear the faint sound of rock and roll coming from a radio below deck... I shout "helloooo!?" through the companionway with the assumption that nobody was there but me. The broker had told me only minutes earlier in a text that he had left the boat unlocked and for me to check it out on my own time today...

A few seconds pass and I shout "hello!?" again, and suddenly an older gentleman with a scraggly white beard, oil stains running down his arms to his elbows, and blue paint on his shirt pops his head out of the stern half-berth with great disbelief and discomfort!

"Who are you!?" he pounces. I reply "Are you the broker??" in confusion. He snaps "No! I'm the new owner, I bought this girl six weeks ago on eBay! A steal!" -- I go on and explain what I was doing there... He tells me that my broker had been out of his mind and that he had purchased the boat from its original owner.

And so, we continued to talk for about an hour, and he proudly guided me through his new 38 foot project. Something he plans to launch this Friday! She was absolutely beautiful! All she needed was a new rudder to get her sailing again (~$2k), as the old one had warped due to sun exposure.

I left in my car feeling somewhat discouraged and frustrated. I can say more about the broker, but I am restraining myself... I'm simply left wondering:

Is it ever worth going through a broker for a used Ericson? In my experience (as stated above) they don't seem to pay much mind to the lower-end product they are selling, likely because there isn't much commission in the deals, verses selling a new boat, for example. Has anyone gone through a broker to make an Ericson purchase? What was your experience like?

I don't feel like I wasted time. I got a great tour from a new friend! But what a crazy day!

what does the broker get by trying to sell you a boat that belongs to someone else?
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
A headache. Sounds like the owner listed with a broker and put in on eBay too. Hmmm.

My take on yacht brokers is that they're valuable. Least so with a cold call demanding to see a certain listed boat. Much more valuable when you check them out, choose one, seek a long term relationship, and listen to what they say about the market, the realities, and so on. I had a broker once who sold me a boat and then the owner backed out, handed back the security deposit after my full survey. He had shown it 17 times--and now, for nothing. Both sellers and buyers can be unreliable.

Two years later the broker called me up and said the boat was back on the market, might I still be interested.

Any senior yacht broker likes boats (did once, anyhow), knows a lot, and has inside knowledge on his computer which he or maybe she doesn't reveal to everybody. If you find one you like, keep him.

A prospective buyer might as well use the service, since the seller's paying for it, usually 10 percent of sale price or a minimum of $3000.

That's why many of our boats in the 25K range are private sales. That works, but it does require attention.
 
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Sean Engle

Your Friendly Administrator
Administrator
Founder
You do better with a family who cares.

Is it ever worth going through a broker for a used Ericson? In my experience (as stated above) they don't seem to pay much mind to the lower-end product they are selling, likely because there isn't much commission in the deals, verses selling a new boat, for example. Has anyone gone through a broker to make an Ericson purchase? What was your experience like?

In a word? No.

Frankly, I think you should consider the boat you wish to purchase, and then target it.

For example - if an E38 is your interest (and I'm biased, of course) - you have a HUGE pool of owners here who are very happy to assist -- and some of which are getting to toward the end of their ownership - and would dearly love to pass their boat along to someone they feel is going to take care of it, maintain it, enjoy it, etc. Nothing hurts more than to dump tons of time and money into a boat and then watch it rot or have someone abuse it.

You'll find the right boat - and we hope it's an Ericson - your questions and interest are happy sounds to everyone on this board!

//sse
 

Equanimity

Member II
Replying to everyone's response

I am going to try and catch up on the recent posts! See quotes and replies below - Brace yourself, it's a long post!:

...visions of flying their family and friends on great adventures. Those people almost always ended up writing about having the time and expense of an aircraft that was never used as intended, or at least not enough to make it worth the financial output. They bought an airplane for the 10% part of usage, not the 90%.
Thank you, Chris! I appreciate the hard advice. I am personally looking forward to the project aspect of the boat - something I'll have to maintain with love and care. I'm looking to single-hand her through the seasons, if possible. Just something I can nurture over 5-10 years.

As for owning a 38' boat, I have no regrets moving up from the 33'.
Hearing your experience leaves me a bit more confident. I definitely want to invest in an autopilot so I can shimmy around the deck adjusting what's necessary. Definitely appreciate the comforts!

its just bigger, heavier, somewhat more expensive to berth and maintain, and--not quite as much fun to sail.

I still think, for shorthanded sailing, a boat in the 32-foot range is about right for me.
Loved the video, Christian. I'd say that 80% of my usage with this boat will be for shorthanded/single-handed sailing. Would you feel more confident in a 38 over a 32 in rougher seas / weather? This will be my first venture into blue water and want to make sure I have a vessel that can handle trouble, if it arises... Would love to know your thoughts.

... or buy a solid older boat at a lower price and spend wisely on meaningful upgrades, invest your time to make it what you want, and you'll be a lot happier. But beware the "great deal" because they rarely are.
Thanks for all of the advice! Definitely going with option B.

Any senior yacht broker likes boats (did once, anyhow), knows a lot, and has inside knowledge on his computer which he or maybe she doesn't reveal to everybody. If you find one you like, keep him.

A prospective buyer might as well use the service, since the seller's paying for it, usually 10 percent of sale price or a minimum of $3000.

That's why many of our boats in the 25K range are private sales. That works, but it does require attention.
Fascinating insight on the economics of Ericson yachting! I suppose if one is truly serious, going through a broker is a strong option.

In a word? No.

Frankly, I think you should consider the boat you wish to purchase, and then target it.

For example - if an E38 is your interest (and I'm biased, of course) - you have a HUGE pool of owners here who are very happy to assist -- and some of which are getting to toward the end of their ownership - and would dearly love to pass their boat along to someone they feel is going to take care of it, maintain it, enjoy it, etc. Nothing hurts more than to dump tons of time and money into a boat and then watch it rot or have someone abuse it.

You'll find the right boat - and we hope it's an Ericson - your questions and interest are happy sounds to everyone on this board!

//sse
Loving my experience so far, Sean, and E38 is the target!

I would hope to carry the previous owner's legacy forward after acquisition... A good home w/ access to a shop awaits. I'm looking forward to hearing more stories from E38 owners!
 
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Equanimity

Member II
Hey Mike,

Does your search require the vessel to be on the East Coast?

Cheers,

Max

If the price was right, I would consider a west coast boat. Is it even possible to transport a 38 foot sailboat over land from say California to Boston? I would imagine it would cost many thousands!
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Headin' down the Highway, Lookin' for Adventure.........

If the price was right, I would consider a west coast boat. Is it even possible to transport a 38 foot sailboat over land from say California to Boston? I would imagine it would cost many thousands!

What we learned, a couple of decades ago, was that boat transport involves several facets.
Basic cast is mileage. It costs XX cents per mile to move cargo. I did not (too much) stress about the cost for the haul out and relaunch at arrival because haul outs and likely some bottom prep would be part of acquiring it.
Ask around about the reputation of the hauler. Your marine insurer and surveyor will have suggestions.

Then, there is the boat itself. The total overhead clearance of the cargo on the purpose-built keelboat trailer is governed by the Federal hi way overhead clearance standard. I recall, dimly, that this is a bit over 13 feet. One good thing is that the Ericson 38 is not a grossly Huge vessel. LOA is about 37'8" and the beam is a modest 12'.

It's not unusual for a yard at the departure point to have remove a bow or stern pulpit and pad and lash it under the hull or inside the cockpit somehow. Those coils of rigging have to be well-padded and lashed inside or somewhere. Chafe is the enemy, inside and on deck. Repeat that caution several times. :rolleyes:

As I was able to persuade a friend with a pickup truck to drive down to SF to help with the move, we loaded his canopy chock full of boat gear, and lashed the boom, spinnaker pole, and radar mast on top. Not nearly up to the rocking-chair standard of the Beverly Hillbillies TV show (!), but funny anyway.
12 hour non stop drive, regularly trading drivers, and we were in PDX waiting for the truck to get here, days later.

Cost will vary. Our original quote (1994 dollars, of course) was about $2500. for the one way haul, on our schedule. We chose option two = some flexibility in time and about $1900. Option three= they called me with an empty 'back haul' that had to get their truck-and-trailer up to Seattle, and offered to do it for about $1300. This sped up the load out time at the yard in Alameda, but they sighed and said OK, and this had happened before. :cool:

Beam is important, and if the load is wide enough to required a pilot car, the cost goes up.

Talk to at last two national haulers (of sailboats), and they will explain the costs and options.

Oh yeah, risk and liability. While the hauler will have insurance of some kind, do have your own insurance in place before it's loaded and leaves the yard. We did. No issues, but a potential extended fight with the hauler and their insurer was something we did not want to be a part of. :p

Finally-- it was the boat we really really wanted.... no regrets. Well, not too many anyway.
:)

Trucking trivia: our draft is 6' and our beam is 10' 10". No stanchions or pulpits had to be removed for trucking.

Edit: an on-line inflation calculator would increase my '94 dollar figures by 73%. (sigh...)
 
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Touchrain

Member III
Most anything can be fixed, at a cost in time and labor. I’d take a good look at the bottom. My 1980 E38 had a full peel and blister job that cost $12,000 20 years ago. Fortunately that was by the previous owner. No reoccurrence of blisters, yet. Look for water leaks, crazing at stress points and any previous repairs. Also check to see if it was a salvage. I’ve done most everything on ours, so let me know if you see stuff and I can let you know what it cost me. Our boat took us safely on a 10,000-mile offshore voyage, so I’m biased a bit.
 

Equanimity

Member II
We're probably going to stay pretty local for our purchase. I agree, I don't think it's practical to move a 38 from one coast to another.
 

steven

Sustaining Member
I recently looked into moving an approx 37 sailboat from Chicago area to Annapolis estimated 800 miles on a whenever-transporter-finds-convenient schedule. Quotes from $3500 to $7000, including permits and insurance. All kinds of disclaimers, caveats and fine print that varies from shipper to shipper and makes it hard to compare quotes. Does not include yard fees for transport prep and loading, and then off-loading and re-commissioning at the destination. Plus, any gear that could possibly move - anchors, dishes, whisker poles, spare parts, closet doors, . . . - has to padded and tied down, or crated and shipped separately. Did not really seem cost effective.

--Steve
 
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