E27 Repower: what IS the best option? What say the ye?

Scott Abbott

Member III
OK... I am now considering over the winter repowering the boat as its continued march to restoration. I have investigated the beta marine option 13 HP for the E27. I have investigated the new A-4 new block option and keeping the gas power in the boat. What are most of you deciding to do? I am trying to weigh the pros and cons of both. I would prefer the gas mileage, resale, reliability, safety, etc. of diesel... after all, no sailboat today comes with gas power. I am leaning toward going the A-4 replacement new block route... I actually kind of like the idea of restoring the boat with the old A-4 power plant. If you have done this, and have recommendations, regrets... whatever. Hit me with it. Thanks!
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Gas or Diesel conundrum

As loyal as the A4 owners are...
in my area any sailboat with a gas aux. engine seems to take two "hits" on the second hand market. One is that a smaller proportion of buyers will even consider a gas engine, and more of those are shopping in the "pennies on the dollar" end of the fixer-upper market.
Secondly, the time that a gas engine boat spends on the market is quite a bit longer than a boat with a diesel.

Of course, those are just generalizations... even 70's sailboats with diesels will vary a lot in marketability depending on make and model of diesel. Buyers like a brand with a good service record like the Universal or Yanmar and are more cautious of Volvo with their storied high-priced replacement parts.

It seems like a boat with a great-running A4, is a harder sell than one with an average small diesel. That's probably not logical in several ways, but that's the way it looks.

Right now, there is a Clean (!) Ericson 29 for sale in our moorage with an A4 gas engine, and an expert mechanic sez it's one of the cleanest and best-running gas engines he's seen in years. The boat is getting very few offers and the price has just been dropped from over 12K to under 8K. Owner really wants it sold. Of course the whole market has been slow since the recession started and may not recover completely for many years...

Random thoughts, worth about .02, perhaps.

Loren
 
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Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Last winter I was working on my boat and a fellow was waiting for a broker to show him an E35 a few boats down. Nice looking boat, 30K asking.

After the broker left, I asked what he thought of it.

He shook his head and just said, "Atomic Four."

Unfair, sure, but I think most buyers have neen coached to have a similar reaction. That cuts the pool to those who actually know something, which is bad.
 

Afrakes

Sustaining Member
OH MY! Is that an A-4

As the owner and potential seller of an extremely "Clean" 1973 E-27 equipped with a thoroughly updated A-4 I can attest to the prejudice that is out there. Many times I've heard "Don't gas powered boats blow up?" My standard answer is, "Only when the owners are extremely stupid." There are plenty of excellent reasons for why diesels have replaced gas powered engines. If you are going to motor for hours and hours and hours then you want a diesel. If you are looking to motor out of your anchorage or slip and raise your sails within ten minutes. Why do you need a diesel? OH MY! You have to turn on a blower for five minutes before you start the engine. Oh, that's too much of an inconvenience. That's the comment from people who should not own any kind of boat. My forty year old, E-27, A-4 powered, with her own trailer (she's on Yacht World) is a real honey and some day a worthy owner will come along. Until then I get to deal with the willfully ignorant and woefully uninformed. Al Frakes Port Kent, NY
 

sailingjazz

Member II
E27 Repower

The truth is that on a boat this age you are not likely to get back money spent on a re-power. The A4 is a smooth running, quite, low maintenance motor this is really pretty nice to live with. So, if you plan to keep and enjoy the boat for the next 10 years there is nothing wrong with an A4 re-power (it will be easier). Just do and and enjoy it. If you are looking to restore and then sell to upgrade, the diesel is the better choice (but you are still not likely to get your money back). If I only did work that I planned to recoup on resale well, I would only do maintenance. A boat is not an investment after all (except in the maintenance of one's sanity).

That said I have an original Universal diesel which never gives me any trouble (so far). It is loud and vibrates and is generally disagreeable but we have an understanding.

Cheers
Kevin
 

tenders

Innocent Bystander
Used older boats are a buyer's market, have been for years.

It is true that diesels have longer range than gas, but it is also true that people tend to wildly over-estimate their use of the boat before they buy their first one (or two), and it is not hard to strap a jerrycan to the lifeline for truly long cruises. Diesels are NOT lower-maintenance than A4s, and parts for many makes of diesels are difficult to get and expensive. Nor are gas engines unsafe on boats: every outboard engine in the world is gas-powered, as are many powerboats being manufactured today.

A diesel conversion will cost $5-7k over an A4 rebuild, but diesel-equipped boats do not sell for that much more than comparable-condition A4 boas.

With these facts in mind, in my opinion the only diesel conversions that make sense are those done by people who truly need the range of a diesel and who plan to keep their boats long enough to justify the $5-7k additional expense.

I happen to think hardly anybody really fits that category.
 

Scott Abbott

Member III
Thanks for the comments and feedback!

Right now my A-4 runs..surprisingly sounds good too. I am afraid of it due to the level of neglect I found my boat in when I bought her. In hindsight, I should have just agreed to pick her up! (I did have a survey and the hull and decks are sound). Before sailing 150 miles south, I installed a stern mounted 9.9 back-up engine as a redundancy. I converted to electronic ignition and replaced the harness (along with rewiring the entire boat). I am very fearful of the raw water cooling (and I forgot and failing to install the fresh water flushing 'T' valve before I put her back in the saltwater in late March). I am so deep in this boat now that I think we have had a Catholic wedding here. I do fantasize about making all restorations as a means to the goal of sailing her to Maine and/or the Bahamas in the next 4 years. I guess saving up and dropping the funds for a universal diesel is the way to go. Yanmar? In the interim, have the current A-4 engine acid flushed and compression tested to reassure what I have is sound for now? What diesel would most recommend I install for the E-27? I know for the 7000lbs displacement, I need a minimum 13 HP. I have heard many complaint of underpowered diesel E27s...
 

PDX

Member III
Does "core charge" mean their selling price anticipates a trade in of the identical Universal/Kubota block? In other words, if you don't have one to trade, then their "core charge" (however much it is) would apply?
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
If, and that's a strong "if" you can do some of your own engine work, there are always decent used diesels to be found. I know of one local boat owner that replaced a tired but running Universal M25 with a new Betamarine. I seem to recall that someone came to the yard and picked it up, complete, for under 1K.
For this option, though, you need to network with boatyards within driving distance, and also try to have a friendly mechanic to answer questions...
Kind of a long shot solution, really.

Heck, if we keep our '88 boat another 15 to 20 years, I will likely replace the original Universal M25XP with a new Betamarine. whoever gets the good-running Universal will be getting a slightly-marginal-size transmission, mid-80's marine conversion technology, faded panel gauges, etc................ :rolleyes:

They'll get a "super deal", but they need to be ready for some wrench-turning and perhaps some hand wringing and head scratching.

I note that you've thought about how much power you might need. IMHO the original A4 was used by all the boat builders because it fit easily, being a low, flat-head engine design. It came in only a few HP sizes, and just about every boat, no matter how short, ended up with over twice the HP it needed.
In other words, I see no point in duplicating the HP when you change to a diesel (if you do). There is just not enough disp. and DWL in boats under 30 feet to "need" a 30 hp engine. :nerd:

Having said that, a good friend of mine took our a shot A4 originally installed in his Ericson 27 and replaced it with a 9 hp Yanmar single. He always said that while it was fine in smooth water, the boat would just momentarily come to a halt in big seas on coastal passages when several waves hit the bow in close order. It should have been a twin, at around 12 to 14 hp, he observed with 20-20 hindsight.
OTOH, that little Yanmar ran smooth and was totally reliable, getting the predicted (and much appreciated) fuel economy. Lot more room in the engine compartment, too!

Best,
Loren
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
I would compute the real dollars required to make the A4 perfect (or at least remove all worries), and subtract that from the real dollars to install a new diesel, tank, gauges, and so on.
 

Scott Abbott

Member III
In other words... the cost to refit the entire boat to diesel... I could just go out and buy a new to me $15K boat with diesel. Sounds more and more like I don't really have a real choice. People have cruised long distances with A-4s right?
 

Emerald

Moderator
The A4 should be just fine for about any cruising you're likely to do with your boat. I (like I'm sure many on this site), cruised for many years with an A4. They are great little engines, and some basic common sense is all you need from the gas stand point. Get the A4 squared off and put any extra money into new sails. That will give probably the best bang for your buck.
 

clp

Member III
I'm in with the others. Diesels are near and dear to my heart, I wish everything was. Chainsaws, and weedeaters with little Caterpillar motors, with turbo. That said, if the A4 is not just burned to the ground, I would freshen it up, and run it like I stole it. There's little reason to doubt that little cast iron brute wouldn't circumnavigate. And IF you get in a pinch, any yard hack can work on a gas-burner. Diesels seem to be a mystery to some, and I don't know why.
Anyway, a repower is a HUGE step. EVERYTHING will have to be addressed, and sometimes twice. If you pay the yard to do it, it will easily outprice the boat. So unless the boat was a dying gift from dear ol' grand-dad, or Joshua Slocum once sailed it around the horn, it'll be a dead loss. Opinions being what they are, this one is a sure-nuff no sh****...

And even being the diesel nut that I am, I wouldn't have a single problem in the world with it. I recollect that gas-burners have been around for awhile..
 

Jeff Asbury

Principal Partner
Used Diesel web site.

Here's a interesting web site if you really want to look for a used Diesel. I did a search for 2 and 1 cylinder Yanmars that I know would fit into a E-27. FYI, I had to rebuild my Yanmar 1GM10 single cylinder about 8 years ago because it rusted from the inside because when I purchased my boat it had been re-powered with the Yanmar and no exhaust riser and salt water was back washing into the head. It ran fine for the first couple years I owned my boat. That rebuild cost me about $2,800. bucks. I probably could have saved quite a bit of that if I had pulled and re installed the engine myself. I checked into the cost of replacing my 1GM10 with a new one at that time and they were over $6,000. Now they are pushing $10 k. When I was shopping for boats, I wouldn't settle for anything but a Diesel, because of the reliability, safety, range and endurance and for the most part easier to maintain vs gas.

Well, enough about that, here's the site I found. I know nothing about it but I did find a engine like mine used for $2950.- plus core. That's about what I paid for my rebuild. Happy Engine shopping.

http://www.dieselenginetrader.com
 

Scott Abbott

Member III
Thanks! I think I will drop some cash to have it evaluated and then see about getting some rework done to make sure it stays healthy for as long as possible.... Then, we'll see. I think a new A-4 with a truly new block that is fresh water cooled sounds pretty good to me...
 

Afrakes

Sustaining Member
1976 A-4 available

Scott: I have a fresh water only, complete 1976 A-4 that is mechanically excellent. Out of a northeast boat. Short seasons. I bought it as a spare before I went through my 73 A-4 and now that I'm into the refit of my 81 E-28, equipped with a Yanmar 2 I don't see myself using it. I gave $1,000.00 for it including a three blade Indigo bronze prop for a 1" shaft. Saw it run in the boat it came out of. Steady oil pressure and plenty of power. Interested in getting my money out of it. Al Frakes Port Kent, NY
 
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