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381 Rudder Issue???????

Neil Gallagher

1984 E381
Howdy Folks:

I'm looking for some wisdom. I'm a fairly new owner of a 84' 381 and recently meet a rigger at the boat to tun the rig. I was concerned that the last rigger over tensioned shrouds before water delivery to Texas as she had developed a couple of stress cracks on deck of the starboard chain plate. The last rigger tensioned the shrouds to wire spec (10% of break i think) without adjusting the chainplates below. The new rigger and I felt it was too tight so we slacked the shrouds to what "felt" right, and tweaked the chainplate below (one turn). The headstay and backstay were not adjusted. Sailed her this weekend, rig looked good, stayed in column and leeward shrouds were not "too" lose. However.......
I noticed a bit of a squeek from the steering quandant. Dug around the aft lazeratte, could'nt see anything. Then noticed the squeek was coming from the aft lazerette lid as is was slightly moving in relation to the bulkhead just aft of the rudder post. I noticed the movement when the rudder seemed to be loaded. Open the rudder post cover and did see any slack in the post / bearings. It does however seem the back stay is a "liitle' less taunt then before. Could the rig re-tune affect the hull aft of the rudder post??????? I plan on crawling back there to inspect the sterring quadrandt, cables etc. :confused:
 

rwthomas1

Sustaining Partner
Small stress cracks in the deck around the chainplates is not unusual. I have a couple, likely from PO's not keeping up with adjusting the tiebars belowdecks. There is a procedure in the manual for how to adjust them.

The rudder squeek is likely not related, unless you actually can confirm movement and that would probably mean bulkheads and related tabbing had come loose. That should be obvious if it has happened. The rudder post on my E381 made a loud groaning the first season I had the boat. There is a grease fitting for the top bushing that is usually difficult to access. I just put a few drops of 90W gear oil on the top of the rudder post and all was well. FWIW, the only way to properly lubricate the rudder post is to drop it.

RT
 

footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Hi Neil,

I've spent some quality time in the aft lazarette messing with the steering cables and the quadrant. The center plywood panel there is loose and comes out for access. The two panels on either side would be suspect, based on what you described. Look for tabbing that has come loose and repair/re-tab if necessary. You should check in the starboard lazarette also, where there is a longitudinal bulkhead that may have a door cut in it for access to the back end of the engine. There could be a problem there also.

My tie rods below decks are about a turn tighter than recommended but I haven't gotten around to un-snugging them yet.

Ditto what Rob said about the stress cracks and the rudder lube. I have a couple cracks near the starboard main u-bolts where they penetrate the deck and I re-worked the deck and made a thicker plate to fix a leak that developed. The cracks don't seem to be all the way through to the plywood core.

Good boat, I hope you're enjoying it.
 

Neil Gallagher

1984 E381
Follow up

Thanks Rob & Craig! I'm headed to the boat this weekend and will be attemping to squeeze those spots. The aft lazeratte is crowded with the water heater. The starboard lazertte does have the access panel, but also has a Phaser genset that really restricts visibility to the steering quadrant. I'll keep you posted. Thanks for the guidence!
 

Neil Gallagher

1984 E381
Follow up with further diagnosis - E381 Rudder / Cockpit Sole flexing

Upon furhter investiagtion and going down a repair effort that did'nt pan out I have another question for E38 / E381 owners. It appear that the flex / shifting of the aft lazeratte lid while sailing with a rudder load may be as a result of the LACK of a tabbed in bulkhead between the starboard lazzertte and the aft lazzeratte. There is a tabbed in bulkhead between the port quarter berth and aft lazerette but not a corresponding one on the starboard side. There does not appear to ever have been one installed (no evidence of one being removed). I'm thinking the the lack of one on the starboard side (adjanct to the cockpit sole and steering quadrant and up into the coaming) could be causing the flex. Would E38 /E381 owners please repsond if their boat has a tabbied in bulkhead between the starboard lazertte and aft lazerette? It would seem crazy for a PO to remove this.
 

e38 owner

Member III
tie rods

i did not know the tie rods should be adjusted. I had my chainplates re done and afterwards one side did develop some cracking. How should they be adjusted. Also How tight do you keep the wire in the cabin that stops the cabin from bowing
Thanks


Howdy Folks:

I'm looking for some wisdom. I'm a fairly new owner of a 84' 381 and recently meet a rigger at the boat to tun the rig. I was concerned that the last rigger over tensioned shrouds before water delivery to Texas as she had developed a couple of stress cracks on deck of the starboard chain plate. The last rigger tensioned the shrouds to wire spec (10% of break i think) without adjusting the chainplates below. The new rigger and I felt it was too tight so we slacked the shrouds to what "felt" right, and tweaked the chainplate below (one turn). The headstay and backstay were not adjusted. Sailed her this weekend, rig looked good, stayed in column and leeward shrouds were not "too" lose. However.......
I noticed a bit of a squeek from the steering quandant. Dug around the aft lazeratte, could'nt see anything. Then noticed the squeek was coming from the aft lazerette lid as is was slightly moving in relation to the bulkhead just aft of the rudder post. I noticed the movement when the rudder seemed to be loaded. Open the rudder post cover and did see any slack in the post / bearings. It does however seem the back stay is a "liitle' less taunt then before. Could the rig re-tune affect the hull aft of the rudder post??????? I plan on crawling back there to inspect the sterring quadrandt, cables etc. :confused:
 

Neil Gallagher

1984 E381
Reply to Tie Rods

On my 381 the deck at the chainplate developed a small crack and actuallyhad a slight buldge. We slacked the shrounds and took up the tie rod below in an attempt to pull the deck flush. Then started taking up tension on the shrouds again, all the while checking tie rod tension and cabin / deck shroud tension. Taking up multiple turns on the upper tie rod pulled the deck so much that the lower tie rods went slack. Based upon that we relased the extra turns until the lower tie rods firmed back up. I'm not sure how to check the tension other than starting with a slack shroud tension and a fair deck. Hope that helps.
 

Tom Metzger

Sustaining Partner
How tight do you keep the wire in the cabin that stops the cabin from bowing
Item 11 in the rigging section of my E-34 manual says:

"Adjust the deck-to-step tierod just until slack is removed. Pin the turnbuckle to prevent loosening."
 

footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
My E38 (hull 20) has no bulkhead between the aft and starboard lazarettes. No evidence that there ever was one there. I do not think we have anything like the flexing you describe, either. There is a bulkhead at the forward right that separates the galley (under the sink) from the starboard lazarette. One of the tabs is loose from the hull, but I haven't done anything about it.

The bulkhead across the center of the stern, behind the rudder post, that forms the forward wall of the aft lazarette is tabbed to the hull on both sides, right? Mine has an access panel cut out, but the cockpit floor is tied to the hull on either side via this upside-down "U" shaped piece of plywood.

AftLazlookingDown01.jpg
 

Neil Gallagher

1984 E381
Craig:

Thanks for the Pic, my bulkhead that is aft of the rudder post and forms the forward wall of the aft lazertte is screwed into the glass that forms settee. It is not tabbed into the hull. I'll take some pics and send them. I installed a couple of braces from the starboard side of the "T" shape of the cockpit and shimmed them against the hull, one against the lower hull longitudinal stringer and one with a thin piece of poplar to spread the load against the hull. I did this as a test and then went sailing. There was about 90% less flex so I think I've identified the issue. The next question is what is the best way to resolve it permently? There is a Whale Gusher pump, and fresh water connection and the autopilot control display mounted on that side of the cockpit T. I would think a matching bulkhead on that side would make the most sense but don't really want to move the items installed there. I could retrofit the aft lazertte and tab it into the hull but I'm concerned about the lack of steering quadrant access that would leave, as just forward of the rudder post is the generator. I'll send pics to the forum asap and ask for input.
I'm still baffled as to what chaged to create this flexc. This as this is a new issue since I boat the boat last Nov, and the only structural change I've made is to easy the shroud tension a bit.

Thanks again!

Snipped:

My E38 (hull 20) has no bulkhead between the aft and starboard lazarettes. No evidence that there ever was one there. I do not think we have anything like the flexing you describe, either. There is a bulkhead at the forward right that separates the galley (under the sink) from the starboard lazarette. One of the tabs is loose from the hull, but I haven't done anything about it.

The bulkhead across the center of the stern, behind the rudder post, that forms the forward wall of the aft lazarette is tabbed to the hull on both sides, right? Mine has an access panel cut out, but the cockpit floor is tied to the hull on either side via this upside-down "U" shaped piece of plywood.

View attachment 8932
 

footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
You're welcome, Neil. That bulkhead in my picture is a block to the rudder post area, for sure. Not that anyone bigger than a 5 year old could get their eyeballs back there other than upside down. The slots in the fixed part are there to allow access to get hands and tools inside just far enough to scrape your wrists while feeling for and adusting the eyebolts, stringing the steering cables, etc. The pic doesn't show it, but I have a 12-gallon water heater that's forward of the rudder post. Can't wait for that to crap out. It would come out the starboard lazarette in pieces.

Here's a couple more pics. Looking down into the aft laz. Spare fixed pitch prop and anchor. There is a removable piece that fits over the access hole and around the cockpit drain hoses.

AftLazLookingDown02.jpg

The gray box on the right is an isolation transformer, the white shape is the water heater. The rudder was dropped when this was taken and the quadrant is hanging down. These are from our 2008-09 layup.

AftLazRudderTube01.jpg

I think you need to attach the aft end of the cockpit to the hull back there somewhere. You've already started to prove that point with your experiment. I don't know how the forces from the rig travel around the deck and hull, so guessing how shroud tension changes suddenly made the flexing noticeable is beyond me.

Let us know how you decide to fix it. Post a couple pictures if you get a chance.

Craig
 

Wind River

Inactive Member
my 381 flexes as well

my starboard lazerette is open aft as well. I have felt the aft lazerette seat actually move while sitting on it but only in heavy weather and pounding into the waves and with about 1500 lbs of pressure on the backstay
 

Neil Gallagher

1984 E381
wind river

Is the bulkhead aft of the rudder post on your 381 tabbed into the hull? Mine is not and to Craig's point it probably should be. I'll take some pics of the lazaretts this weekend and send to forum for comments.
 

Wind River

Inactive Member
just a chunck of plywood

had a better look. There is no bulkhead behind the rudder post. Just a square chunk of plywood two feet wide from where the cockpit sole would end to the bottom of the hull more or less to keep things from sliding underneath. The flexing I have though has never alarmed me. I have only felt this movement when things were really rough.
 

Neil Gallagher

1984 E381
Lazerette PICs

So here are a few pics of the experimental braces I installed in the starboard lazerette. Given the area I sail is know for wind, (its been 15 -30 for since Feb), I definatly want to address this. Its dis-hartening to see the flex under sail knowing its from rudder load. The braces Iinstalled are temporay until I figure out a more permante solution. It makes sense to tab the bulklhead in the aft lazeratte (per Criag) but given I have a genset forward of the sterring quadrant I'll lose access to rudder post.

Question to the list: would it make sense to glass in two blocks to hull aft of the rudder post and drill and bolt the aft lazertte bulk head to the glssed in blocks? This way I'd add support the aft lazertte bulkhead and also maintain access to rudder post. What would be the structural implications of that set up? I'm thinking that fastening the aft bulkhead to the hull and and glass at last one brace into the stinger in the starbord lazerette would be a more permant solution. I'd like to avoid installing a bulkhead in the starboad lazertee (matching the port quarterberth bulkhead) due to the insturments and pumps installed on the starboard side of the cockpit.

I'd appreceitate some guidence.
 

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rwthomas1

Sustaining Partner
I was having trouble trying to visualize your problem but the pics fixed that for me. On my E38 the cockpit footwell has a corresponding bulkhead system below it to support it and transfer the loads to the hull. The port quarterberth wall, from the forward end of the engine space to the forward wall of the aft lazarette space, ties the cockpit footwell to the hull, all tabbed in. The forward wall of the aft lazarette space looks much like Footrope's pics, tabbed in top and bottom to the hull and cockpit aft wall respectively. On the starboard side there is a short plywood bulkhead that extends from the aft lazarette bulkhead forward into the starboard lazarette hatch area, extending about 1/3 of the distance of the hatch opening. The result is a set of bulkheads that box in the cockpit floor and in doing so transfer all the steering loads to the hull.

I am not sure if I would point load the side of the hull as you have with your temporary bracing. Any bracing that transfers large loads directly to a hull skin should spread it over as much area as possible. An aft bulkhead or something like it even with an access hole for the steering gear would be the best solution as it would be tabbed into the hull over the largest area and carry loads in the most needed directon.

RT
 

Neil Gallagher

1984 E381
Thanks Rob!

I believe, from what you descirbe I have the same cockpit footwell bulkhead system. The starboard lazerette has (I belive) the bulkhead with an sliding access panel. The aft lazeratte bulkhead which is not tabbed is certainly different. Do you have any thoughts about machanically fastening the aft bulkhead to glassed on blocks on hull? I hate to lose access to the steerrng quadrant. What about using just one brace in the starboard lazeratte if it were glassed into the longitudinal stringer (lower temp brace in pic)? I would think if the brace is anchored to the stringer it would be stong enough.

I agree that the aft lazerette bulkhead needs to be dealt with.
 

rwthomas1

Sustaining Partner
I don't really have an answer for you. On my boat, access to the steering from the aft lazarette, even if I cut a hole or removed the aft bulkhead entirely, would be so poor that I cannot see it being of any value. I am intimately familiar with the steering system on my boat, having installed a new rudder, fabricated all the needed bits for a belowdecks AP, replaced throttle/shift cables, renewed the steering cable/chain and also repaired/reinstalled the broken steering limit stop. The only way I could have done any of this is from the area forward of the steering gear. My boat has the water heater installed there, and it can be removed fairly easily. I understand you have a genset in the way and that would prove much more troublesome to move. Rock and a hard place I think. RT
 

footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Neil,

Thanks for the pics - they helped a lot. I agree with Rob about the temporary fix on the starboard side. If you decide to use that as part of the solution, bond a larger backing plate to the hull to spread the load. Fitting the hull curvature can be done by roughly shaping the plate and the remaining gaps underneath will fill in with the epoxy. The same goes for the connection to the cockpit on the other end of that brace. I'm curious and a little concerned that there are more than one boat with this configuration, apparently built with missing hull connections. At least when compared to our two examples.

I will watch for flexing in my boat. Once I get the new traveler installed we'll be trying it out in stiff winds when we can get them. Not always possible in summer up here.

Your idea about the blocks glassed to the hull and fastened to the aft lazarette bulkhead isn't necessarily a bad idea. Spreading the load to the hull and plywood panel applies here too. I would be concerned about crushing the plywood with the fasteners and then the forces/flexing would eventually work the holes out of round, and then you're right back to your original problem. Glassing it right to the hull is a better solution. If the plywood isn't in hard contact with the hull, then there's no hardpoint. The glassed connections are inherently flexible.

If you try the blocks, you could put aluminum or steel tubing inside the holes in the plywood, as an anti-crush bushing. This is done successfully in the main shroud chainplate connection to the interior bulkheads, up by the mast on the starboard side. I would first put a couple layers of cloth over the bottom of the plywood to give it a better bearing surface. Pick your fastener size and find tubing to fit, and oversize the holes in the plywood to fit the tubing. Putting blocks fore and aft of the plywood and creating a clamp around the bulkhead is another approach to spread the load over the softer plywood.

It would be nice if other E38 owners would take a look back there and let us know what they find - whether that aft laz bulkhead connects the cockpit floor to the hull.

Cheers,
Craig
 
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