Jeff Asbury
Principal Partner
Well it looks like we agree to disagree on this one Sven. How about we talk about gun control next? 
Boat capsizes in San Diego, killing two and injuring seven.
Sven
Seglare
That's most unfortunate.
Love ya, Jeff, but I'm with Sven 100 percent.
Leave Darwin in charge, and just hope the idiots don't take too many innocents with them.
I began "operating" boats when I was 6. It was usually my dad's 17' foot cabin cruiser with a 65-hp outboard that maxed out at 25 knots, but also my uncle's 65-foot halibut schooner that ran 9-knots but held 70,000 pounds of fish. That was in Alaska, in the ocean, in the 60's.
By the way, kids in my fifth and sixth grade classes used to carry their shotguns to school during duck and goose season so they could ride my school bus to my bus stop after school, and walk out on the mud flats at the mouth of the Mendenhall River (Juneau, Alaska) so they could hunt without adult supervision.
Times have definitely changed, and the nanny staters want to legislate how we wipe our own asses. Regulate lakes and rivers if you must, but keep the ocean free.
(By "operating," I meant there was an adult present until I was 12.)
(I should also add that I accompanied my father to the Coast Guard Auxiliary Boating Safety classes when I was 12, but had to audit them because I was underaged. They let me take the exams and I aced them, but was too young for a certificate. How messed up is that?)
Leave Darwin in charge, and just hope the idiots don't take too many innocents with them.
I began "operating" boats when I was 6. It was usually my dad's 17' foot cabin cruiser with a 65-hp outboard that maxed out at 25 knots, but also my uncle's 65-foot halibut schooner that ran 9-knots but held 70,000 pounds of fish. That was in Alaska, in the ocean, in the 60's.
By the way, kids in my fifth and sixth grade classes used to carry their shotguns to school during duck and goose season so they could ride my school bus to my bus stop after school, and walk out on the mud flats at the mouth of the Mendenhall River (Juneau, Alaska) so they could hunt without adult supervision.
Times have definitely changed, and the nanny staters want to legislate how we wipe our own asses. Regulate lakes and rivers if you must, but keep the ocean free.
(By "operating," I meant there was an adult present until I was 12.)
(I should also add that I accompanied my father to the Coast Guard Auxiliary Boating Safety classes when I was 12, but had to audit them because I was underaged. They let me take the exams and I aced them, but was too young for a certificate. How messed up is that?)
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I'm not Sven but I had to put in 2 more cents
Well Sven, do you have any better ideas on how to avoid inexperience, blatant negligence and disregard for safety on the water?
I also see the inexperience and negligence. People crossing in front of others. Not keeping a mandatory lookout because they are to busy with a cel phone or have something else distracting them. Not Following the "Rules of the Road" that are very clearly defined.
But I see all of this on the roads where supposedly everyone has mandatory Drivers License and had to pass a test at one point and renew it every several years.
If it doesn't work on land how is it going to work at sea?
Well Sven, do you have any better ideas on how to avoid inexperience, blatant negligence and disregard for safety on the water?
I also see the inexperience and negligence. People crossing in front of others. Not keeping a mandatory lookout because they are to busy with a cel phone or have something else distracting them. Not Following the "Rules of the Road" that are very clearly defined.
But I see all of this on the roads where supposedly everyone has mandatory Drivers License and had to pass a test at one point and renew it every several years.
If it doesn't work on land how is it going to work at sea?
Sven
Seglare
Looks like you must have stayed at a Holiday Inn last night !
Kidding aside. I don't want to have us all pick on one person who has a different opinion.
I'm personally revolted by the law that was held up as an example but I don't think it is Jeff's fault that it was the best he could find. However, until there is an example that actually solves an identified problem and does less harm than good I'll continue to be adamant in my position.
-Sven
CaptDan
Member III
Won't help. I have seen some of the most book accomplished people on the water make massive screw ups that even the newest members here would not.
There is a mistake here training, especially expensive useless gov decided training, would not have prevented the mistake.
If you try and legislate away idiocy you create more of it.
Guy
I've been a licensed, employed master for the past decade as well, and I have to say some good arguments have been made - which I concede are, in many respects, more compelling than mine.
However - and as a master yourself you'll likely agree - the main reason for licensing pro skippers is for purposes of culpability and ensuring responsibility. That doesn't guarantee no errors will be made or screwups occur (I've seen my fair share and made a few myself), but at the end of the day, there's somebody to either be thanked - or blamed. I think the onus of that expectation lends to increased competence; when you know you've got something to lose (your ticket), you tend to be a little more careful and detail oriented. At least I am.
It's very hard for me to fathom how anybody with experience (license or not), would prep a boat like that Mac26, where 10 newbies (and children) are involved, and not be thinking PFDs and potential overloading. But, maybe I'm being too subjective and assuming more than I should. I guess that's my issue and I'll have to deal with it, right?
All that said - I have to agree: no law has ever effectively worked against stupidity, and building a bureucracy on that concept is futile.
Capt Dan G>E35II "Kunu"
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Jeff Asbury
Principal Partner
I am now reflecting on my statements in this discussion and I have to admit that a lot of what I said was generated by the strong emotions that came to me after seeing the photo of the over loaded boat that appeared a couple of days after this preventable accident. Two people are dead and this could have been easily avoided by proper education, not to mention just common sense. I just see these kind of "accidents waiting to happen" all the time.
I come from a sailing family. We started sailing on northern California lakes in 1964. When my father bought his first cruising sailboat in 1966 we had four kids in the family and I was the oldest at the time at 10 years old. The first thing my Mother did was have us all take swimming lessons at the YMCA, all four kids went through the whole program and I went on to swim competitively until I was 16. As a family we we we're members on the Bremerton, WA Yacht Club and participated in the safe boating program offered by the club. We really took advantage of every thing the club had to offer, I raced dinghies when I was a kid, no "little league" players in my family. Boating safety was burned into my brain at a early age. In those early years as a sailing family, we all (Mom & Dad included) wore PFDs every time we went out.
"Any one can buy a boat". All the time I am meeting new boat owner's, that have just purchased their first boat (often in their middle age), most often too big a boat, with zero experience and no intention of getting any type of boating education before heading out. They just think there is nothing to it, with attitudes like how different can it be than driving a car. It's great that they want to get into the sport, life style or what ever it is that attracts them to the water. They just need to get educated.
I started sailing at the age most kids are just learning to ride a bicycle and I was lucky enough to have parents that took great responsibility. Yes I had my own 10' sailing dinghy with a 5 hp outboard when I was 10 with no kind of permit to operate it. But I received lots of coaching.
Once again, my statements and suggestions here were sparked from a real knee jerk reaction of emotion from seeing that photo of a overloaded boat listing and getting ready to capsize with a guy with a corny "Mr. Howell" type skipper's hat on at the helm. And it was not the first time I have seen that happen.
I come from a sailing family. We started sailing on northern California lakes in 1964. When my father bought his first cruising sailboat in 1966 we had four kids in the family and I was the oldest at the time at 10 years old. The first thing my Mother did was have us all take swimming lessons at the YMCA, all four kids went through the whole program and I went on to swim competitively until I was 16. As a family we we we're members on the Bremerton, WA Yacht Club and participated in the safe boating program offered by the club. We really took advantage of every thing the club had to offer, I raced dinghies when I was a kid, no "little league" players in my family. Boating safety was burned into my brain at a early age. In those early years as a sailing family, we all (Mom & Dad included) wore PFDs every time we went out.
"Any one can buy a boat". All the time I am meeting new boat owner's, that have just purchased their first boat (often in their middle age), most often too big a boat, with zero experience and no intention of getting any type of boating education before heading out. They just think there is nothing to it, with attitudes like how different can it be than driving a car. It's great that they want to get into the sport, life style or what ever it is that attracts them to the water. They just need to get educated.
I started sailing at the age most kids are just learning to ride a bicycle and I was lucky enough to have parents that took great responsibility. Yes I had my own 10' sailing dinghy with a 5 hp outboard when I was 10 with no kind of permit to operate it. But I received lots of coaching.
Once again, my statements and suggestions here were sparked from a real knee jerk reaction of emotion from seeing that photo of a overloaded boat listing and getting ready to capsize with a guy with a corny "Mr. Howell" type skipper's hat on at the helm. And it was not the first time I have seen that happen.
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Tom Metzger
Sustaining Partner
How most of the bad, overly restrictive laws are passed in this country. As someone else said, if the existing laws were enforced...
BTW, I looked it up; the guy who overloaded the Mac 26 on Lake Champlain in 2002 causing two kids to drown served four years in jail.