Boat capsizes in San Diego, killing two and injuring seven.

The potential benefits are minuscule compared to the downside of building more bureaucracy.

I agree about the bureaucracy part. But - in a sense - it already exists. It's run by personal injury attorneys and insurance companies. Every time a marine casualty like this happens, attorneys jump in and your premiums jump up. Any excuse to spread the pain, insurance companies are there.
Perhaps a way to mitigate some of that is to try to reduce accidents and give the insurcos incentives to reduce premiums.

That said, it seems sailors are better trained by and large than motorboatists.
Or - maybe - they just go slower and aren't as threatening. But - depending on where you're located - there are a GREAT many ill prepared, underskilled, dangerous boaters out there. And since the waterways belong to everybody, the boating public has a right to expect some level of competence and safety.

I don't have the answers, but training isn't a bad idea. And if it has to be enforced, well - so be it. I don't like bureacracies any more than you do (I deal with plenty as it is). But the downsides aren't too wonderful either, IMO.

Capt Dan G>E35II "Kunu"

CaptDan said:

I don't have the answers, but training isn't a bad idea. And if it has to be enforced, well - so be it. I don't like bureacracies any more than you do (I deal with plenty as it is). But the downsides aren't too wonderful either, IMO.

Click to expand...

How many lives per year (in the US) do you think mandatory training would save ?

I'm not at all sure that the number is large enough to warrant additional intrusion into the very last open frontier available to us mortals.



-Sven

Sven said:

How many lives per year (in the US) do you think mandatory training would save ?

I'm not at all sure that the number is large enough to warrant additional intrusion into the very last open frontier available to us mortals.



-Sven

Click to expand...

I couldn't answer that. But I am in favor of boaters with proven experience (meaning older examples) being exempt from licensing - or grandfathered in. That's the way Washington State handled their mandatory program (though the test itself was a joke.) I think it's the younger boaters with high speed runabouts that should be targeted, and there are quite a few of those types of accidents, if memory serves.

Anyway, the more I think about it, and the more I imagine a bureacracy, the less crazy I get about the idea. Still, the concept that anybody who can afford it can buy a boat, not care anything about water safety (the San Diego victims weren't wearing PFD's, apparently) and endanger everybody around them isn't particularly appealling either.

Capt Dan G>E35II "Kunu"

Hi Dan,

CaptDan said:

Anyway, the more I think about it, and the more I imagine a bureacracy, the less crazy I get about the idea. Still, the concept that anybody who can afford it can buy a boat, not care anything about water safety

Click to expand...

We are reasonable people, that's why we can admit that there is no easy answer.

Maybe impose a speed limit or HP limit or tonnage limit ? But once you do that mission creep will still set in and we slide down the slope. We never slide back up the slope



-Sven

I'm with you Sven. Part of the reason I got into sailing was the relative lack of regulation. I see no reason to impose a sailboat license.

As a licensed Master, I say it won't help

Won't help. I have seen some of the most book accomplished people on the water make massive screw ups that even the newest members here would not.

There is a mistake here training, especially expensive useless gov decided training, would not have prevented the mistake.

If you try and legislate away idiocy you create more of it.

Guy

Guy,

Guy Stevens said:

If you try and legislate away idiocy you create more of it.

Click to expand...

I wish I didn't agree with you.

Another problem is that the only people who will be interested in enforcing the idiocy prevention laws are the idiots who can't think of anything better to do ... because ... they ARE idiots.


:hoppingmad:



-Sven

Sven said:

Here's a picture of the boat before it capsized

http://i53.tinypic.com/bg7bf7.jpg

Link stolen from the discussion on Cruisers Forum.



-Sven

Click to expand...

If you look at the picture there is a lot of headstay sag and the spreaders are angled significantly downwards. If this is indeed a rental boat it was not set up properly by the rental company.
If we have to regulate anything lets regulate the rental companies that are making a profit versus adding more expense to boat owners by requiring a license.

Let us let the government focus and learn how to balance the budget before they teach me how to sail. No laws can't prevent a moron from hurting people (I am not referring to this captain as we don't have all the details yet).

I think that at the end of the day this is going to boil down to just poor judgement on the part of everyone concerned. The passengers didn't seem to notice overcrowding, the boat was poorly rigged, the skipper went out anyway. The whole situation is sad to say the least. You cannot teach good judgement, you cannot pass laws that forbid bad judgement. You can only advise against it when you see it, avoid it, and be sad for the persons who suffer for it. And then, let those who practice good judgement enjoy the passion of sailing.
Only my humble opinion.

Best always,
Frank

Oregon requires it, why should California be any different??

I have already retracted my suggestion of mandatory Skipper's License, but I still strongly feel that this should be mandatory education http://www.dbw.ca.gov/BoaterInfo/BoatSafeCourse.aspx
I know that Oregon has adopted similar requirements. A friend of mine who lives in Astoria and has spent his whole life making a living on the Sea with the Navy, Commercial Fishing on the Bering Sea, Under Water welding, and building boats for government contracts, still had to take the test. He hemmed and hawed a bit at the beginning but passed with flying colors because of his experience.

Here is the information on the Oregon requirements: http://www.dmv.com/or/oregon/boating-license

Boater Education Card onboard!

Why should California be any different??

Jeff Asbury said:

I have already retracted my suggestion of mandatory Skipper's License, but I still strongly feel that this should be mandatory education

[snip]

Boater Education Card onboard!

Click to expand...

So you've withdrawn it but still are for it ? Funny guy

Why should California be any different??

Click to expand...

Why should California be the same ?



-Sven

I'm for "mandatory boating education".

Jeff Asbury said:

I'm for "mandatory boating education".

Click to expand...

How is that different from a boating license ?

Is it part of high school education ?

Is there a test ?

Is there a card/diploma/license/certificate ?



-Sven

In Oregon....

"Oregon requires a Boater Education Card for boaters, and not a boating license. The regulatory authority for the card is Oregon State Marine Board. The card is mandatory for all boat operators operating a vessel of 10 hp or more. These requirements will be gradually adopted during the entire year 2009.

There is a restriction on the age of boat operators. If you are under 12 years of age, you are not allowed to operate any powerboat. If you are between 12 and 15 years of age, you must have your Boater Education Card onboard, and operate the boat under the direct, onboard supervision of an adult (16 years or older) who completes the above requirements. If you are between 12 and 15 years of age and wish to operate a personal vessel greater than 10 HP, you can do so under the direct supervision of a person who is 18 years or older and has a Boater Card.

The laws also require that the person operating a boat should not be under the influence of intoxicants. The legal limit of the blood alcohol content (BAC) is 0.08% and if arrested for a higher BAC, harsh penalties may be imposed on the operator, based on the severity of the offense as well as the previous number of similar convictions."

I used to think Oregon was an OK place. That law is an absolute abomination.

A kid can't operate the dinghy even with the parent right there ?

Those legislators should be keelhauled !



-Sven

Boater's Liscence

Sven
We have that in British Columbia and they are starting it in Washinton as well. It's very easy to pass the test - my son passed it and only studied the manual on the way to the test - and he is a reluctant boater - but that's another story.
I get the feeling that the powers that be only want to be able to say you knew what the proper couse of action was after the accident, so don't use the ignorance excuse.

If you think this legislation is bad - consider out long gun registry where we are supposed to register all shotguns and rifles - we have been trying to get rid of that for years.
John

Shamwari said:

Sven
We have that in British Columbia and they are starting it in Washinton as well. It's very easy to pass the test

Click to expand...

But the quote was

If you are under 12 years of age, you are not allowed to operate any powerboat.

Click to expand...

That is one of the most idiotic laws I've ever seen. I mean there is stupid, but this goes beyond stupid and is a perfect example of why the bureaucrats should be driven into the sea.



-Sven

Well Sven, do you have any better ideas on how to avoid inexperience, blatant negligence and disregard for safety on the water?

I sail all the time and I am witness to all sorts of things like jet skier's crossing the bows of 1,000 foot container ships, small beat up sailboats (purchased for a couple hundred bucks) with crews that have no idea how to get the sails down or get out of the way from larger craft like container ships, power boater's that are just running on autopilot with no one on deck. Not to mention so many boater's that have no knowledge of the "right of way" on the water.

My boat was hit while on a mooring at Catalina last summer by a power boat that was trying to leave his mooring in 15 knot winds when he had one of his engines out. I was on a friend's boat as I watched it happen helplessly. He saw me yelling and waving at him, yet he just took off. He should have asked the harbor patrol for assistance in getting out with only one engine on a boat like that.

One thing that I have enjoyed doing while solo sailing is monitoring the marine radio and I will most always listen to distress calls to the Coast Guard or Vessel Assist. Usually it is a power boat that has run out of fuel and drifting towards the rocks. The first thing the Coast Guard asks is "do you have an anchor?". Well duh, the anchor is your emergency brake! I can't tell you how many times I have heard that call, and the boat operators should know that very basic part of seamanship. Just one of many examples.

Jeff Asbury said:

Well Sven, do you have any better ideas on how to avoid inexperience, blatant negligence and disregard for safety on the water?

Click to expand...

Yes, hold people responsible for what they do and actually enforce laws rather than just passing more and more and more that are blatantly ignored.

Passing outright stupidly idiotic laws is certainly no better than NOTHING.



-Sven