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Need Help Making a Decision

Shamwari

Please Contact Admin.
I was going to ask this on the e-39 vs Freya question as it relates fairly closely but didn't want to hijack a thread. We are a year and a half away from finally being able to go offshore ( if the health stays good) and we have been going through intense indecision about what path to follow getting ready to go. I have an e-39 that I have redone as much as I can without spending a lot of money on it- although I guess I have spent a lot of money - mostly by far was sweat equity. It's in good shape and we were planning on going offshore with it.
Then I made a list of the things I would need to get it ready. Some of them were: probably new rigging
some mast work
windvane
radar and chartplotter
larger tanks for water and fuel
better hard dodger that will withstand a wave
SSB
Practor Modem
New instuments ST60
Whisker and Reaching poles
at least 2 new sails
more chain
etc.
EPIRB
Liferaft
refridgeration
Now these can add up to $40,000 quiet quickly.

The e-39s that have sold in the last few years according to Soldboat.com seem to sell in reality for about 32,000

Now it crossed my mind that in the car restoration hobby it is always cheaper to look for a deal where someone has done all the work and wants to get out of a project, so I went though a lot of research on boats for sale with most of the equipment on them already.

There are a few improvements we would look for on the e-39. My wife really wants a shower. I want a proper chart table where you don't need to sit sidesaddle. I would like to use the huge area under the lazerette better. We would like better hatches. A little more room would be nice.

So I can find most of this on other boats at around the 100,000 to 120 range.
There is a 48 Camper Nicholson recently done up for about 100,000. The problem is that I would then need to sell my boat - a situation I really don't like doing as I don't want people telling me how they don't like parts of the baot I've tried so hard to restore - and I don't want to give a salesman 10%.
(Hey I'm approaching retirement and that cheapness is what is going to get me through it)
So what the heck do I do? All opinions will be appreciated and in the end I'll make my own decision anyway but I've learned that I don't know everything - so let me know what you would do at this pont.

John Gleadle
e-39
Vancouver BC
 

Sven

Seglare
Tough decision unless you can find one that is already done and equipped. Of course, there is the question about how it was done, would you still want to change stuff out ?

I'd add a larger rudder to your list.

Solar or wind power ?

Water maker ?

Heater ?

How are the portholes ? Opening for warmer climates ?

Cutter stay ?

Rigid vang ?



The list goes on ... and on :egrin:



-Sven
 

Shamwari

Please Contact Admin.
Hi Sven

I've been watching your preparations with envy. I'm ready to do the rudder though I may leave it untill nexy winter as I need the boat out of the water for a while. The cutter issue is one I will deal with later. Do you feel a cutter option will add muchto our boat?
Watermaker - I could go without a larger water tank with one but they seem to be the source of a lot of problems.
Heater - yes I will need one, up here anyway.
I asked the admiral if she wanted opening ports and she didn't see much need for them. Have you seen other improvements to the small ports in the e-39?

And then the real question. If I'm healthy enough to sail for 10 years it doesn't matter if I put a lot of money into the boat and can only get 35,000 back out of it, but if I only get a couple of years that makes less sense than a boat with higher resale value.

Thanks, John

PS Thanks for keeping us informed of your boat preparations. There are interested people out here.
 

Guy Stevens

Moderator
Moderator
The greeness of the grass, and other falacies....

Your list is interesting....

My questions would be where are you going?

The difference between $32K and $100K is $68K. The difference in value of the two boats alone would keep the admiral and I cruising for at least 5 years. Also remember that the CN is going to require more than that $40k to get it ready to go if you approach it the same way.

(Actually it is going to require about twice that easily because the boat is bigger and the BUC* ((Boat unit of currency on the 48 is over $2x what the BUC is for the 39). Trust me on that I know it well. Our E-46 is $2x or more for everything that you need than the E-39 was. *

So if the goal is to go cruising, fix the dent in the mast, get new rigging, buy some USED gear, (Windvane steering, Icom 735, Pactor modem, couple of solar panels), Buy a few things new: New Sails, a good depth sounder, some Jerry jugs, a refrigeration system, and get out of dodge. That is my real list. Everything else is a luxury that you are trading time in your life for. Would they be nice, yeah are the anywhere near as important as going cruising? NOPE.

What is currently preventing you from going is not your boat, it is you... Decide that you want to go, and then go... When we bought Pneuma, one of my long time very old sailing friends said; "If you can't go cruising in a palace like an Ericson 39 then you can't go cruising."

Go. Getting a new boat is not what is keeping you from cruising. The boat you have is an awesome cruiser. I would not trade if for a Camper Nicholson 48 even straight up. The CN is going to be a lot harder to sail, a lot heavier sails, more expensive to dock, etc.

Unlike the car restoration market where the value of the car is based largely on what you can sell it for, the value of your boat is based on where it will take you and how well it does what you need it to do. Is the Camper Nicolson 48 worth the extra 5 years of cruising?

People in 53 foot Halberg Rasseys, were some of our best cruising friends. We did everything they did, went to all the same exotic islands, had the same issues with boat parts and boats in far off places. In the end I would say that we had even more fun than they did. The real kicker to it all, they would tell you we had more fun too!

Cruising is not about the boat. Leaving is not about having the perfect boat (hint, there are no perfect boats). It is about deciding that you want to go cruising and going...

Go now, have fun, live life... You can do this, we have spoken and I have sailed your boat, you can do this, you can go cruising, on the boat you have and be gone in less than a year if you want..... Why start all over with another boat and another set of challenges, problems, and things to fix.

* Boat Unit of Currency = The normalized amount that everything seems to cost on the boat. For example the B.U.C. for an E-26 is about $200.00 you go to the chandler to fix any given thing and you walk out about $200.00 lighter. The B.U.C. for an E-39 is about $1000.00 same problem, the solution is bigger, more exotic, and more expensive by a factor of 5x. The B.U.C. for an E-46 is $2000.00 Double that of the E-39 or even more.

So I would change you list to:

Used windvane
Used SSB
Used Practor Modem
New Functioning Depth Guage
Used Whisker Pole
Used Charts or Belingham Chart Printers
New Main and Jib,
Used Sta Sail
more chain How much do you have now?
New EPIRB
Liferaft Where are you going?
New refrigeration

Swing the compass yourself, learn how to do it. The directions are in Bowditch (American Practicle Navigator) which by the way is free here: http://msi.nga.mil/NGAPortal/MSI.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=msi_portal_page_62&pubCode=0002
 
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Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Cautions and Ideas...

John, I was looking over your want list and remembering that line from the old sci-fi tv series, "Danger Will Robinson!"
:rolleyes:

There is some real risk in trying to buy a boat with all the equipment you listed. Electronics would need to be within five years of install or almost valueless. The hardware stuff within ten years or devalue to... above zero, but perhaps not too far... Sails, ditto.

While you might find a larger cruising boat equipped with late model gear, logically selected and properly installed, the odds are Not Very good.

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/198...ckpit-2197233/Marina-del-Rey/CA/United-States
If you have the money for a totally restored blue water boat, restored and equipped by a professional rigger and boat wright, I actually know the guy that did the work. His cruising was cut short after about a year when his S.O. wanted to return home and he decided that she was lots more important than his continued cruising. He's a loyal guy.:cool:

While there may be other special situations like this, I believe that this is very rare. I saw it when the whole interior was stripped out. It's extremely well built and the restoration has created a boat that would cost 600K plus, new. In a market full of projects, this would be called a "1% boat."

Back to your E-39, for a LOT less money you can add the bits you want to your well-proven present boat...

Time? Money? Whatcha got the most of? (Or the least?)
:)

Loren
 
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Sven

Seglare
You've gotten lots of good advice above.

The equipment price ratio relative to boat size that Guy mentions is actually why we chose the E39B. The rule of thumb is that the price price for equipment varies as the cube of the boat length since it is tied to the displacement. It's a crude rule but good enough for a sanity check.

There was an equipped Norseman 447 that we almost bought. It had just sailed into California waters after a smooth passage down the East coast coast and through the ditch and was no worse for wear. What made us nix the idea (despite absolutely loving the design !) was the cost for maintenance and any new hardware. The genoa winches on Senta II are large enough, the ones on the 447 would probably cost as much as a new compact car to replace :egrin:

Besides, we are partial to Ericsons.



-Sven
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
Guy is right

The biggest obstacle is you..

Checklist:

Do you have a storm sail plan (storm staysail or storm jib plus a trysail or very deep reef)?

Can you navigate (plotters are nice but we made it for thousands of years without them)- a good GPS (and a couple of handheld spares) and paper charts will get it done)?

Does your cockpit drain sufficiently (lots of posts about this), and can you secure the main hatch from inside the boat?

Ground tackle for your planned destinations and potential enroute stops?

Autopilot?

Engine is in good shape with enough spares?

Basic refrigeration (engine driven or electric)?

SatPhone


This is a short list and the only potentially expensive item would be the autopilot-which is no place to go cheap.

With these items you can make the trip-everything else is a luxury. The hard dodger would be good, but a fold-down type is much better than nothing, and will give you 90% of what you were looking for.

Charging systems and water makers are nice, but we used to cross oceans with just 2 batteries (on for the house and one for engine start)-just run the engine every change of watch and you will have enough juice for whatever you need.

Gas/LNG stoves are nice, but unless you are very careless, a good old alcohol stove and oven (gimballed, though!) will get you there and you can ALWAYS find fuel for it.

A lot of boats are foregoing the SSB in favor of Satphones-they always work.

Watermakers-if it just 2-4 people you wll be OK with tankage-especially if you collect rainwater..A sun shower is a great invention and very practical. Leave it out for a few hours in the sun and you have enough warm water for 2 showers..


You get the point; and there are always a few things you might add to the list, but if you want to go and you have the basics, GO! The boat will get you there.

Safe voyaging!

S
 
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Blue Chip

Member III
I think there is also a familiarity factor...you already know that old ERICSON pretty well inside and out. Do you want to start that process over with a new boat and a new BRAND of boat. Just my two cents.
 

treilley

Sustaining Partner
Last august we purchased a 1997 Caliber 40lrc in preparation for living aboard and eventual long term cruising. It was actively cruising and ready to go when we closed on her. Since then I have found many things that need upgrading or just do not like certain things and want to change them out.

New sails, standing rigging, chart plotter, radar will add up quickly. And we will need a new membrane for the water maker before we leave.

All on top of installing a hydronic heater to survive our Maine winters. But it runs on 12v and we can use at anchor.

So be careful buying a complete boat as you may want or need to change out things anyway. We are very happy with our purchase as our 35-3 was not suitable for our future needs and we bought the new boat with a $30k refit budget.
 
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mherrcat

Contributing Partner
I notice that Guy's list does not include radar. I have thought about this type of list many times and have often wondered how necessary some of the equipment people take really is. I know it's better to have something and not NEED it, but still, if some of the things you take you don't USE, what's the point?

So, how necessary is radar? Is it something that really just makes you feel safer on a night passage?

What about chart plotters? They seem like an expensive luxury considering people have navigated without them for hundreds of years (discounting the accuracy argument.) I figure if you have the need to rely on GPS coordinates to tell you where you are on a chart, you could use an inexpensive handheld GPS unit and transfer the coordinates to a paper chart. Although I have heard that this in not always a safe thing to do since the position of something on a chart does not always agree with the GPS position for the object. And if that is the case, then wouldn't chart plotters have their own inherent inaccuracy since their charts are based on the same information as paper charts?

Just two of the conundrums I contemplate when dreaming the dream...
 

Sven

Seglare
All on top of installing a hydronic heater to survive our Maine winters. But it runs on 12v and we can use at anchor.

Which brand did you get what components did you chose ? Maybe this should be a separate thread, but it is one of the more frustrating items on our short list. I was planning on an Espar system but finding part listings, prices and engineering specs for engineering the system has been a pain. Don't think they want our business.


-Sven
 

Shamwari

Please Contact Admin.
I have to agree

I have decided to keep the e-39 and upgrade the parts that need it to go offshore - and it feels like a weight off my chest to finally quit waffling back and forth.
Guy - I know you think I should just get going and I would allready be gone but I have to wait for my wife to get her pension - she has worked 33 years for it, so no matter how often I would like to just go it will be 2013 when we can leave. That doesn't mean we won't be out on the water weekends and we are going on the outside of Vancouver Island a couple of times this summer.
I really appreciate the support this list offers and thanks again
John Gleadle
 
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