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Irksome water leak...can anyone help?

Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
I have a very irksome water leak that I have not been able to solve, and am wondering if anyone has experienced a similar leak and solved it.

The water is visible right at the joint between the V-berth bulkhead and the V-berth base on the V-berth side. The woodwork at the corner (ie. the rear port corner of the V-berth when I raise the cushion) is damp; when I look inside the locker which contains the holding tank, I can see water drops on the underside of the V-berth floor at that corner, and it then runs down that bulkhead and then leaks under the bulkhead into the head beside the toilet. I have dried it all, and it returns during a rainfall, so I know it's fresh rainwater.

I have tried to find the source of the leak, but so far no success. I first dried the wood with a heater and then ran a water hose for about 20 minutes on the rubrail and on the port stanchion in that general area, but that didn't lead to any sign of water entry. I also ran a hose on the hatch cover above the V-berth without any water coming in. The mast foot seems too far away, as the area of the leak is about 3 feet forward and given the slope of the deck there, I think any leak there would run into the head, not the V-berth, so I've ruled that out. I ran water over the anchor locker at the bow, thinking that maybe a leak there could run down the port side of the V-berth and leak in the area described above, but it also stayed dry.

My last guess is that perhpaps one or more of the screws holding the V-berth hatch in place is leaking, not into the V-berth, but into the deck core and then inside the headliner and down the vinyl fabric at the side of the V-berth into that corner--although I ran the hose there, I think it must take longer to gradually run its course, as there was no immediate leak. Unfortunately, there is no access to that headliner in that area without removing the V-berth wood moulding, plywood veneer and headliner staples--a pretty significant job for me.

When the weather improves I will rebed that V-berth hatch cover, but in the meantime I'm not convinced that I have identified the source of the leak correctly yet, though I don't have any other ideas.

Has anyone had a similar leak, given that this area of the Ericson boats is configured similarly? I would appreciate any help or advice to help me solve this problem.

Frank
 
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mherrcat

Contributing Partner
Also check your hatch handles. My hatches (main saloon and v-beth) have cloth covers on the inside that attach to snaps on the wood trim in the headliner. I had noticed evidence of water on the inside of the main saloon cover and also that the varnish on the vertical wood trim inside the hatch openings had evidence of water damage.

If you have the original Lewmar Superhatch, Select Plastics has a handle rebuild kit with O-rings and nylon washers/shims. I discovered that the O-rings in my handles were severly compressed and suspected that this is where the water was coming in. The kit comes with three O-rings, two shims and a tube of silicone grease to lubricate the O-rings. (The kit is only $6.95, but the shipping is $12.95 - go figure. They also say it comes with instructions but the kit they sent me did not.)

I found the same O-rings at the hardware store for 29 cents each and Permatex Dielectric Grease (silicone grease) at AutoZone for about $3 for a small tube. The shims, however, do not appear to be a standard size, but you can probably reuse the originals.

The O-rings were in the plumbing department and the bin they were in was marked "28" so I assumed that is the size. (Not metric, because 28mm would be way too large.)

The handles originally had two shims between the inside handle and the hatch lens. I removed one of the shims on each handle to increase the tension when the handle is closed. I figured the gasket was probably fairly worn out, too, so more tension was probably better.

If the corner blocks are really worn where the handle latches underneath you could remove them and reinstall them flipped over to also create more tension; they are the same on both sides. You'll need some pop rivets and a pop rivet tool to do this. The rivets are easy to remove by carefully drilling off the head and using a small punch to pop them out. The rivet in the center of the block, however, is a real pain to get back in since it is recessed in the block. I had to rig a small tube to fit inside the recess to keep pressure on the rivet head so it would be tight. (I also filled the rivet ends with sealant to make sure they didn't leak either.)

The hatch handle has a screw in the middle that holds a retaining cap. Once the screw and cap are removed you have to get the handle off. I used a 1/4" punch to tap out the center shaft, then the handle fell off. The O-ring is under the top of the shaft on the outside of the lens.

After I replaced the O-rings I ran a pretty forceful stream of water from a spray nozzle on both hatches from various angles and didn't notice any leaks. I guess the first real thunderstorm will tell me for sure...
 

Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
Hi Mark,

Thanks for your very detailed reply about the hatch handles. I will note it for future in case I need to replace them, but I'm sure that that is not the source for the current leaks. I ran water over the hatch cover for about 15 - 20 minutes, and there was no sign of water entry at the hatch handles. I did notice a very, very small leak at the aft end of the hatch cover, but only when I sprayed there under the hatch cover very directly for several minutes--normally, rain would run off the hatch cover in such a way that I don't think entry there is really possible.

Thanks again, Mark, but I still need more suggestions on where the water could be comikng in--I have sat on the bow looking at this situation, and thinking about any possibility for the water to get in, and am still flumoxed!!

Frank
 

mherrcat

Contributing Partner
My hatches are the original Lewmar Superhatch. If your's are the same and you end up re-bedding them, I am curious to know if the hinges are through-bolted to the deck. I don't think they are but haven't gotten ambitious enough to try to find out. I do know that the other mounting screws around the hatch frame are just screwed into that raised deck surface under the frame.

If the hinges are through-bolted that would be a real pain as the headliner would have to be opened to get to them...
 

Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
Hi Mark,

Yes, I think mine are the original ones as well. I suspect that the hinges are through-bolted for strength, though most of the frame is held in place with screws as you noted. I can't understand why Ericson didn't put headliner zippers in the bow area, as any repair or rebedding under the deck will require removal of the wood trim and headliner. I am dreading this, but may not have a choice. There simply doesn't seem to be anywhere else that the water could be coming in, unless I'm missing something.... I will let you know what I find.

I would still welcome any suggestions or advice.

Frank
 

Blue Chip

Member III
when I raise the cushion) is damp; when I look inside the locker which contains the holding tank, I can see water drops on the underside of the V-berth floor at that corner, and it then runs down that bulkhead and then leaks under the bulkhead

Having solved a couple of mystery leaks that occured when the weather at night was exceptopnally cold for a week, and noting BC as you home port area, I was stuck by the fact the the moisture was UNDER the V-berth floor, and again and UNDER the cusihon...etc.
We have solved a water problem where-by the sealed under V-berth compartment on our 32-200 would have a gal or more fresh water by spring and could not figure out why...
Believe it or not it was CONDENSATION.
I always thought of condensation in terms of dampness, but in time, you can get quarts of this building up in an area where the ouside hull(under the v-berth) is very cold, and the boat is warmer because of a heater or something.
Maybe I'm oversimplifying it, but prop it open and see what happens.
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Hatch on, Hatch off...

My hatches are the original Lewmar Superhatch. If your's are the same and you end up re-bedding them, I am curious to know if the hinges are through-bolted to the deck. I don't think they are but haven't gotten ambitious enough to try to find out. I do know that the other mounting screws around the hatch frame are just screwed into that raised deck surface under the frame.

If the hinges are through-bolted that would be a real pain as the headliner would have to be opened to get to them...

FWIW, when I replaced the large fore hatch on our boat I did indeed have to take down the liner where it was stapled in place beneath the side of the spigot of the Lewmar hatch. I ended up grinding out some of the old poly moosh & reinforcing the flanges with some oak strips and epoxy. All the old screw and hinge bolt holes were filled and re-drilled to account for slight differences in the hole centers on the new hatch.
What with the install-progression of lowering the new hatch into place, and requirement to have all the staples back in place before being covered by the spigot... I invented a way to have the long ss bolts go thru the head liner and have the nuts accessible. The trick turned out to be trimming those bolts to exactly the right length after the dry-fit, and then using a Barrel Nut on the inside only for the visible termination of the bolts that hold the large hinges on the back. That project was over a decade ago -- never a leak or a problem since. No protruding nut to gouge my head on, either. :rolleyes:

Here is a thread with some pics.
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?t=4690&referrerid=28
If you have other hatch install questions, just ask. It's been awhile but I recall some of the details.
Loren
 

Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
Guys, thanks for your replies. Loren, I did look at the previous thread with the picture of the barrell nuts--that was a very good idea and will be helpful when I re-bed that hatch. Blue Chip, thanks for your interesting idea about the condensation. I have had this on a previous boat, where I had to remove about two gallons of water from the bow when I bought it, all apparently due to condensation as the area was totally closed in. However, in my case now, I know its not condensation, as I can see into the hull through the opening for the knotmetre impellor, and it is dry there. Also, the leak is directly correlated to when it rains, so I know it's rain water, and the amount is too much to be just condensation over a 24 hour period. But keep the creative ideas coming....:egrin:

As I lay awake last night, I was thinking that the leak might be a combination of a slight leak at the V-berth hatch cover running behind the headliner and down into the corner, and a more significant leak at the aft end of the anchor locker. I had noticed that the caulking there was beginning to lift about 6 weeks ago, so peeled it off at the bottom corner. As it was too wet to re-caulk/cure, I taped over it with duct tape as a temporary fix until I can recaulk it in the spring. Although I ran water there as a test, I suspect that it may take awhile for the water to run from there along the inside of bottom of the V-berth headliner where it meets the V-berth base, and back to the corner by the bulkhead where it shows up. I'll take another look at that, but would still welcome any other ideas.

Frank

Frank
 
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Hilco Woudstra, 1983 35'...Sketcher

I had a simular problem. Mine came from where the ancor locker handle goes into the deck fiberglass. It then went into the balsa core and dripped down.....what a mess.

Check the balsa core under fabric ceiling, if very dark, it's coming in and you should be able to find the source. Have attached a picture of the dorade box I had to make for another past leak in that area.

Hilco
 

larossa

Member II
Water Leak

Frank,

Having had numerous water leaks on my E31 it appeared that the most difficult task at first was locating the source. If you are still trying to find the source you might want to try and mark potential water leak areas with chalk (colored is better). Mark these areas up good and then next time you go back to your boat after a rain or whatever you will find that the chalk has ran in the area the water was coming from. This little trick worked for me like a charm. Unfortunately though, I ended up replacing one side of the teak toe rail. Hope this helps.

Good luck,
Brian Walter
E31 C
 

Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
Thanks, guys, for the additional posts. It is still a puzzle, though I'm working hard at trying to determine the source. Brian, you idea of using chalk is generally a good one, but in this case I suspect the leak is either coming along behind the liner in the V-berth or behind the liner or in the deck core from the V-berth hatch--as there are no zippers in the V-berth, I can't access any of these areas to use chalk or examine more closely. I have tried running the hose over fittings in that area that I suspected might be causing the leak, but so far I haven't found enough water coming in to replicate the leak from the rain water. I'll keep trying, but still welcome any other ideas.

Frank
 

mherrcat

Contributing Partner
Don't discount the condensation possibility. After spending last night on the boat with a small space heater running all night there was considerable condensation around the inside flange and edges of the lenses on both my hatches this morning; enough to make the teak trim below the flange wet.

I would like to leave my hatches in the "cracked open" position but the last time I did this it rained and I discovered that water will splash up under the lid and get in...
 
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HughHarv

Hugh
Leaky rubrail?

Water can run a long way, maybe even from as far away as the bow. Maybe you have a leaky rubrail? During rain the rubrail can act as a gutter till the run-off finds a inside the rubrail, then to a fastener and enters into the interior there (I had more than a few leaks from this very problem).

Not wanting to remove the headlliner and use chalk or dry erase markers to locate water traver, maybe you could experiment with a tarp. Cover an area with a small tarp before it rains, when your leak goes away, then the tarp is over the source. Maybe shortening the tarp till you have a leak again will tell you where it starts.

Good Luck!
 

Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
Thanks for these additional ideas, guys. I'm trying to be very methodical about finding the leak, using strategies like what you suggested, Hugh. I have covered the two areas that I think are most likely, and I'll check them in the next couple of days after the current rainfall ends to see if there is any further leaking.

I sure wish Ericson had made the various interior areas of our boats a bit more accessible!

Frank
 

stgermain45

Member I
Check where the base meets the stanchion

Hi Frank,

I fixed a mystery leak recently that sounds somewhat similar to yours, except water would collect a bit further forward in the V-berth. I would have at least 6 inches of water collected after a good rainfall. In my case, water was not coming in from a leak at the deck surface or the anchor locker. Instead, it was at a joining fitting where the rail base connects to the pulpit (metal to metal) a few inches above the deck and it would get into the V-berth from the inside of the base. I recommend pouring water exclusively on any joining piece of hardware to track down the source. For example, pour some water on any elbows/tees/bases on the pulpit and where the stanchions fit into the stanchion base or even at the lifeline meeting point. I couldn't believe the amount of water that was able to leak through from such a tiny orifice. After a little 3M sealant, no more leak!

Chris
 

Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
Chris, thanks for your suggestion. If I understand you correctly, your leak occured where the stainless tube part of the stanchion or the pulpit entered the stainless steel base. I'm puzzled that it could leak into the boat from there, as I thought the tube was simply inserted into the base and held there by a set screw, with the only opening into the boat being the three or four through bolts in the base. As long as those bolts don't leak, I'm not sure any water getting into the base from the tube/base connection could get into the boat. But maybe I'm not understanding where your leak was...:confused:

I have run a hose over the stanchion in that area for about 20 minutes and did not notice any water coming in. I also ran water over the bow pulpit base and didn't notice any water, but from there it may take much longer to work it's way back to where I am noticing the leak.

My next plan is to run water for about 20 minutes over each stanchion, pulpit base and then the anchor locker to see if I can notice any source for the water. The difficulty is that I can't get behind the liner in the V-berth to apply any chalk, or to check for any water flow. So I think a patient, methodical approach is all I can do.

Thanks again for your suggestion, and let me know I have misunderstood where you suggested the leak might be.

Frank
 

stgermain45

Member I
I figure a picture is worth a thousand words, but yes, you have me correct. The first picture gives a close-up of the area I'm talking about. The second picture shows where my leak actually was. Since your leak is on the port side, I'd start on that side of the boat. It was amazing how much water would free flow below deck when pouring water at the point of the arrow. It was instant!

I'm not sure about a stanchion, but in the case of the pulpit (where my leak was), water can definitely make it's way through. For one, the wiring for the running lights are fed through it. Therefore, with gravity as it's helper, anywhere water can get on the inside of the pulpit will have at least a chance of getting into your boat. :esad: I imagine it is the same with a stanchion base if a gap has worked itself over time between the base and the stanchion.

Chris
 

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Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
Chris, thanks for taking the time to post a picture to let me know exactly where your leak occurred. I can understand that a leak in particular at that pulpit base would be a problem due to the wiring for the bow lights going through the deck there. As my boat has a very slight list to port when the starboard water tank is empty (as it is now), a leak there could flow across under the bow to the port side, and be a cause of my leak.

Either way, I will re-check all the pulpit and stanchion bases, so thanks again for your suggestion!

Frank
 

Glyn Judson

Moderator
Moderator
Stanchion base leaks and captive water.

Frank and all, Although slightly off topic but still having to do with water and stanchions, you might want to consider drilling a small weep hole in the down side of the base it self. That way any water that would ordinarily become captive inside the larger diameter base tubing would then have a way of running out. This is particularly valuable when it comes to any base that's had the bottom drilled out such as in the case of running navigation wires through them. The alternative would be to apply that white Navtec Rig-Rap tape http://www.navtec.net/products.asp?id=42&type=18&channel=1 at the joint of the two tubes. Just me thoughts, Glyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey, CA
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
base drains

Frank and all, Although slightly off topic but still having to do with water and stanchions, you might want to consider drilling a small weep hole in the down side of the base it self. That way any water that would ordinarily become captive inside the larger diameter base tubing would then have a way of running out. This is particularly valuable when it comes to any base that's had the bottom drilled out such as in the case of running navigation wires through them. The alternative would be to apply that white Navtec Rig-Rap tape http://www.navtec.net/products.asp?id=42&type=18&channel=1 at the joint of the two tubes. Just me thoughts, Glyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey, CA

Excellent idea. Back when I took the steering wheel guard out of our cockpit for some work, I drilled out the aft-facing side of each base for that very reason. I ended up putting a half-inch OD piece of tubing down a hole in the center of each side for wiring for the AP and the Plotter. That tubing was well sealed to the sole and extended up about 6".
Same idea for the bow pulpit except that I just sealed the wire where it passed thru the deck perimeter (which was what Ericson had done when new. We had to take off the pulpit to repair a dent from the p.o.)

Loren
 
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