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Need advice on electric fuel lift pump

Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
Hi,

I have read the various posts on these pumps, but still need some expert advice, please. I want to replace the electric fuel lift pump on our Universal 5416 16 hp diesel engine. The original is a Facet 574 A cylindrical pump, about 4 inches high and about 2 inches in diameter with the filter on the bottom, which most of the Ericsons seemed to have.

My supplier has the Facet High Performance Gold-Flo Interrupter Solid State pumps which some of you have installed, based on previous posts. But I can't seem to get quite the same specs as the original--it was 6 - 8 psi and 32 gallons per hour.

The replacement options I have are either 6 - 8 psi with 45 gallons per hour and 1/4 - 18 fitting; or another one at 4-5 psi with 30 gallons per hour, without anti-siphon valve and no mention of the fitting size.

My questions are: 1) Is the difference between 4 - 5 and 6 - 8 psi important for proper engine function--ie. can I go with 4 - 5 psi or will that be too low? 2) Is the 30 vs. 45 gallons per hour important, or will the engine simply use what's needed; will the higher flow flood the engine? 3) What does the anti-siphon valve do, and is it important in this application--some of the pumps have them, others don't.

I can get the exact replacement at twice the cost of the other options (about $160.00), but can't find the exact replacement at the lower cost of $80.00.

Thanks for any advice or guidance.

Thanks,
Frank
 

Guy Stevens

Moderator
Moderator
either one should work fine

The idea of the pump is just to supply fuel to the next part down the line... Wither of those you listed would be fine. The flow rate is far in excess of what your diesel is going to use, and the pressure of either unit is fine. The fuel flow is determined by the high pressure fuel pump not the life pump. The anti siphon is generally not needed on sailboats. It prevents a system that has a vented feed from having the fuel run back down into the tank. Diesels do not have vented feeds.

I would go with the solid state unit. Should last as long as any of us are likely to own boats.

Guy
:)
 

exoduse35

Sustaining Member
Guy as usual has it exactly right. Also if the tank is above the engine the pump is virtually unnecessary. The basic deal with pumps are that a mechanical pump sucks and an electric pump blows. They are not at all efficient at doing the reverse. A mechanical pump will draw fluid up wards but can not create much pressure. and an electric pump can create a tremendous amount of pressure but does not draw well at all. An electric pump uses a small fan like impeller and just like a house fan it will blow like the dickens when your in front but not much happens behind it. That is a long way to say that when you install the pump it is imperative that you take into account where you put it! An electric pump MUST be below the tank as close to tank as possible to work right. IF you cannot get gravity on your side to feed the pump you should rethink the type of pump all together. After that it is just a mater of supplying the high pressure pump of the engine enough volume to supply its reservoir.:egrin: Edd
 

Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
Edd,

Thanks for your reply. I was planning to place the replacement electric pump in the same location as the original Facet electrical pump that's there now. It has worked fine, so I'm hoping the new one will also be ok, even though it's not exactly below the fuel tank.

My arrangement is as follows. The 25 gallon diesel fuel tank is aft of the engine, under the cockpit and looks to be the lowest item in the stern hull. I can't see exactly where the fuel comes out of the tank but then it goes to a Racor fuel filter, past a small ball shut-off valve--at this point the fuel hose is about 6 inches above the hull base in the engine compartment. From there the hose goes up to the existing electric fuel lift pump which is at about 12 inches high on the inside of engine cabin right beside the door under the galley sink. From there the fuel hose goes around the front of the engine and slightly up to the secondary fuel filter on the engine and eventually to the fuel injection pump.

So the electric fuel lift pump seems to draw the fuel out of the tank into the Racor filter and into itself, before pushing the fuel on to the secondary filter and the engine. So the electric fuel pump is both pulling and pushing the fuel.

Although it has worked fine, it doesn't sound as if it's totally what you recommended--ie. below the fuel tank. However, as the fuel tank is resting on or very near the hull bottom, I don't see any way to accomplish that. Any suggestions, or should I just install it where the old one is, and hope it works?

Frank
 

mherrcat

Contributing Partner
Below the tank? Good luck with that; about the only way to get it below the tank would be to put it outside the hull. My electric pump is probably in about the same place as Frank's since our boats are the same model a year apart and I've never had a problem. The inlet to the Racor filter is also above the tank by at least 6 to 8 inches. The only problem I have ever had was in rough seas with less than a full tank of fuel when the fuel pickup tube sucked in some air and the pump lost its prime. After re-priming it has been fine since.
 

Maine Sail

Member III
The basic deal with pumps are that a mechanical pump sucks and an electric pump blows. They are not at all efficient at doing the reverse. A mechanical pump will draw fluid up wards but can not create much pressure. and an electric pump can create a tremendous amount of pressure but does not draw well at all.

While electric pumps like the Facet/Purolator pumps do push better than pull they have been used for many, many, many years in applications where they are pulling through the primary filter. Racor is fairly adamant that they want pumps pulling through the 500/900/1000 series filters and nearly ever marine application I have come across the Facet pump is pulling through a primary Racor or other brand of primary filter and in the vast majority of cases installed well above the fuel tank..

I have a PRO42SV Facet/Purolator and she can pull more the required vacuum on a Racor vacuum gauge than is required for a fuel filter change out, and the pump is above the tank. Most of the Facet pumps can dry lift anywhere between 12" & 84". I also have a high flow Carter pump for polishing and she can also pull well in excess of when it is necessary to change a filter and is on the outlet side of a Racor 900 pulling through it. Facet does advise these pumps be used at or below fluid level for "best performance" but they have been used outside of that recommendation for years. The round type can "self prime" to 24". The cube style can lift between 12" and 84" depending upon the model chosen.




An electric pump uses a small fan like impeller and just like a house fan it will blow like the dickens when your in front but not much happens behind it. That is a long way to say that when you install the pump it is imperative that you take into account where you put it! An electric pump MUST be below the tank as close to tank as possible to work right. IF you cannot get gravity on your side to feed the pump you should rethink the type of pump all together. After that it is just a mater of supplying the high pressure pump of the engine enough volume to supply its reservoir.:egrin: Edd

The advice of; "An electric pump MUST be below the tank as close to tank as possible to work right" has physically been shown to not be the case on nearly every boat I have worked on. Think about all the boats with keel tanks and fuel that pumps up into the engine compartments.

Just a few weeks ago I drained about 5 gallons of diesel out of an E-34 with a Facet pump in order to facilitate the replacement of a leaking sending unit. This pump is approx 6-10" above the tank and pulled the very cold fuel through a primary filter at a rather good clip filling the 5 gal can in just a short period of time.

While some boats do have the pump below the tank a very large number of them have them mounted above the tank and they work just fine.

Solenoid pumps are perhaps the most widely used "universal" type pumps and both the facet round pumps and the cube pumps are solenoid. They do not have centrifugal impellers or vanes. They are designed to fit lots of universal applications such as production sailboats and power boats. They’re also available in many different pressure & flow ranges to suit a specific need.

Rather than a motor, a solenoid pump uses a piston that is actuated by an electromagnetic coil. This is what's used to generate fuel pressure and flow. By utilizing short pulses of electricity the solenoid pump can be highly energy-efficient. They can also be quite long-lasting as some models, but not all, don't even have internal rubber parts or bellows to wear out.

Another style uses a unique shaped gear and rotor eccentric mechanism that squeezes the fuel within the pump to create high pressure with very little pulsation. This is very similar in design to the pumps used on residential and commercial oil burners made by the likes of Suntec, Danfoss and Webster. These pumps often lift one or two stories and develop 140+ PSI but are driven by a larger motor. These types of pumps are slightly less efficient electrically but they can still lift fuel.

Yet another style is the rotary vane which is the least efficient electrically, and least common in sailboats, but excellent for use in a fuel polishing or recirculation system. I use one and it creates plenty of vacuum or lift and when I partially dead head it or restrict the flow I can see my vacuum gauge climb to well over double the indicated range for a filter change and again this pump is not below the tank. I have seen small Facet pump lift 6+ feet for a Webasto furnace installation to a day tank with no issues.

You are absolutely right that these pumps perform better pushing than pulling but for well over 30+ years they have been installed in pulling applications, many of them well above the fuel tanks, and performed just fine. All I am getting at is that if yours is above the tank don't rush out to lower it or re-configure your boat over it.

If you own a Racor Turbine filter or 100, 200 or 400 series the pump is recommended to be installed on the outlet side/suction not the inlet for the best filter performance anyway so it is still pulling.

I would not worry about a Facet being a few inches or more above the fuel tank at all and I've seen it in lots of applications with no performance issues.
 
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Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
Thanks for these additional replies. It sounds as if it will work ok, so I'll install it and see. I wasn't aware that this could be a bit of a controversial issue, but appreciate everyone taking the time to fill me in on all the intricacies. :egrin:

Frank
 

Maine Sail

Member III
Thanks for these additional replies. It sounds as if it will work ok, so I'll install it and see. I wasn't aware that this could be a bit of a controversial issue, but appreciate everyone taking the time to fill me in on all the intricacies. :egrin:

Frank

Frank,

Both the Facet "cube" and "gold series" pumps are solenoid pumps. The "cube" pumps are just smaller and many "Cube" models have a built-in check valve.

Westebeke's use:

Facet Cube - #40178 / crosses over to NAPA 610-2403
(this pumps is generally used on their gas generators with lower GPH and has a check valve)

Facet Cube - #40185 / crosses over to NAPA 610-2404
(this pumps is used on most diesels and has a higher GPH and a check valve) The NAPA price was $71.99 / 32 GPH, Max PSI 11.5, has a check valve and 1/8" inlet/outlet.

You will also want the Facet in-line filter #479735

Both of these pumps are 36" of dry lift. Wet lift can be double or more than the dry lift # and Facet's ratings are "minimum" dry lift numbers. Lift should be based on the bottom of the tanks dip tube to the pump.

I had spoken at length with Facet, Carter, Walbro and Parker/Racor when designing my polishing system and this info all comes from the notes that I kept.

The Facet 40185 or NAPA 610-2404 would be an ideal pump for a Universal Diesel as well unless you want the same mounting foot print. I believe many of the new Universal's ship with this pump under a Universal/Westerbeke part # only for a LOT more money, like $198.00+/-...


If you have to have the round "gold" style then I believe the Facet cross over is #476459E or NAPA 610-1076 which was $142.00 at my local NAPA. This is double the cost of the cube pump and it offers no check valve. It will do 24" of dry lift, 32 GPH and has a max PSI of 8 and 1/8" inlet/outlet..
 
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Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
Thanks, Main Sail,

I had done lots of checking on the internet to find best prices for a good product, taking into account some reports on this ericson site as well as other sites (eg. Sail Net, Catalina site) of pumps that had failed. I also spoke with the parts staff at Thorreson Marine, but their replacement was $260.00, though they had a similar pump for $169.00. But this was still to expensive for my budget. I found one option at NAPA, but it was a Carter, and I preferred the Facet, as the original has lasted 27 years, and still works (I'm replacing it as a preventative measure so I don't get stuck somewhere more remote).

I found (and had already ordered yesterday, before I saw your last post) the Facet High Performance Gold Flo Solid State pump with 4 - 5 psi, 30 gallons per hour without the anti-siphon valve and 12 - 24" lift for $75.75 plus about $12.00 shipping cost at Aircraft Spruce. That seemed to be the best price for this type of pump, which seemed to be the closest replacement to what I now have, maybe even the same footprint, at a reasonable price. I also figured that if they sell them for aircraft use, they are likely reasonably reliable. :egrin:

I am hoping that the installation is fairly straight-forward. I'm not sure about the size of the connectors, so I'm hoping I can make them fit with the existing fuel hose. We'll see...

Thanks again for your help!

Frank
 
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Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
Thanks, Maine Sail,

This would have been useful before I ordered the pump, as I ordered the round 478360E with 4 - 5.5 psi, and 36 gallons per hour but probably should have ordered the 476459E with 6 - 8 psi and 32 gallons per hour instead, as these specs are closer to the existing pump (based on info from Thorreson Marine parts staff). Hopefully it won't make a difference, given the info in the posts above.

According to the table you posted above, the inlet/outlet thread for the pump I ordered is 1/8 -27 INT. Do you have any idea how this compares with the older Facet 574A that most of the Ericsons were built with? I think the fuel hose on our boat is 5/16", though it could be 3/8". I suspect the pump won't come with the fittings to attach to the fuel hose--can I buy that easily at NAPA or a chandlery?

Thanks again for all your help!

Frank
 

mherrcat

Contributing Partner
Frank,

Does your fuel pump have a copper tube between the primary filter and the electric pump? Mine does and I was wondering if this is necessary. I was wondering if the vacuum created by the pump is enough to collapse a reinforced rubber hose. The hose from the tank to the Racor is rubber and IIRC so is the hose from the electric pump to the engine secondary filter.
 

Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
Hi Mark,

In answer to your question about the fuel hose, mine is totally rubber (or whatever material looks similar). There is no copper anywhere along the fuel hose in our installation. I know that there are special ratings for fuel hose, so not just any rubber hose would be ok, but any chandlery should have the correct type.

I would be more concerned about the copper being a rigid pipe, and hence maybe more prone to cracking with engine vibration and movement of the boat, but that's only my opinion and I'm no expert. :)

I have appreciated your various posts, given that our boats are similar and your posts offer useful insights and experience!

Frank
 

mherrcat

Contributing Partner
Thanks. Both the Racor and the electric pump are mounted on the same bulkhead, although about 24" apart, so I don't think vibration is too much of an issue. The hose from pump to engine, where vibration would be an issue, is rubber. I believe this is the original configuration. The fittings on each end of the copper tube are flare fittings. Interstingly, the fittings on the rubber hose from tank to Racor are also flare fittings.
 

mherrcat

Contributing Partner
Cool. Are the fittings on the Racor and the Facet NPT? Do they require any kind of pipe dope/thread sealant?

I haven't been having any problems so I think I'll just check the Facet filter for now; been meaning to do that for a while...
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Ya know, I cannot recall if the threads are straight or taper.
I'd bet that Guy knows. I used thread sealant IIRC.
 

mherrcat

Contributing Partner
Before I pull the bottom off of my Facet pump to get to the filter, how much fuel can I expect to come spilling out? I had visions of fuel siphoning from the Racor, but considering that the Facet is a pump, now I am doubting that and thinking it will be just the amount that is in the pump.
 

Guy Stevens

Moderator
Moderator
NPT and not that much really

Npt threads are the standard. I would use a pipe sealant and not teflon tape on them.

When cleaning the pump only the mess of stuff in the strainer comes out, with some small amount of fuel.

Guy
:)
 
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