Oil changing

Our boat "Vesper", an Ericson 32-III, has been "winterized" and part of that was changing the oil in our M25XP engine. Now I've done this many times but overtime I do it I guess I marvel at the stupidity of the placement of the "banjo" type fitting on the oil pan. It's located at the forward, starboard corner of the pan and with the engine tilted in the boat away from this point not all the oil can be removed through the hose connected to the banjo fitting. I use a 12 volt oil extractor, which works great, but I insert the hose through dip stick tube down into the pan. Even at that point not all the oil is drained because the tube doesn't go into the pan at the back, lowest point.

So, my question is, does anyone make an oil pan for a M25XP the has a drain plug located at or near the low end (back end) of the pan. Seems to me that it would make more sense. I've even thought of taking the pan off, some how installing another drain point at the back of the pan where I would relocate the banjo fitting. Unless, of course, someone already makes one. Also, how hard would it be to replace the pan and gasket? I imagine that the engine would have to be lifted a bit for clearance.

It shouldn't be a problem to have someone weld in a second drain plug for you. Metalcraft Engineering over on George Ave (off Chinquapin Round Road) comes to mind as someone local who could do this reasonably. Getting it off might be more "fun". I don't know that engine well enough to give you specifics, but what I have found in the past is the crank and oil pump will often hang down far enough to require a bit more clearance than one might think right off, so not sure how much lift you might require. Also, check the area around where the transmission mates to the block. This probably is not an issue, but sometimes you might have some hard to reach bolts back in this area.

remaining oil

Hi Bob,
Perhaps your engine's "down angle" is steeper than on our boat. I just changed the oil last week. I used the vacuum tank and pulled out almost an even gallon (plus what was dribbling out of the darned filter when I removed it). I put back one gallon of new oil, and the level, after running it, was just a bit below the top mark on the stick. This is usual for our engine.

We have the M25XP with the banjo fitting that replaces the drain plug in the Kubota pan.
Some oil must indeed remain in a rear part of the pan when it is drained, but in my case there cannot be very much.

One thing never changes in all these years -- new oil is immediately black as soon as we start the engine again.

Loren

ps: here is a good video of the process: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bvv7b6jtJwY&feature=related

I am not familiar with your exact engine and space constraints, but a couple of notes: first it is not uncommon for an engine to not be completely drain able, in fact it is almost impossible to achieve without complete disassembly. Second, the vast majority of the old oil is contaminated with carbon, which is itself a lubricant. the level of acids and heavy metals etc. is very low. And finally it would be far less work to simply add a dip tube through the existing fitting. Basically adding a stray to the fitting that extends along the bottom of the pan to the lower end. A bit of disassembly of the banjo fitting should make it more clear. Edd

I will second the thought that the amount of oil left in the pan is negligible compared to the amount of new oil that will be introduced. It seems like far more work and expense to engineer a new fitting than to simply change the oil and filter two or three times a year.

After an oil change on my M18 engine the new oil will become black after only a few uses. I think that is just part of the nature of a diesel engine.

the "dark oil" in a diesel thing is true, it is always there. Even in a semi where there is level drainage, and a volume of 3 to 5 gallons, the oil will be black within just a few minutes of restarting. The carbon suit created by diesel combustion is very close to what is called tire black, used in small amounts to turn rubber black. It is basically graphite. And is an inert lubricant

I've never ever heard of carbon referred to as a lubricant! In fact, I know that additive packages in diesel rated motor oil have specific properties to address the carbon and keep it from agglomerating. Since the carbon, or soot, is sub-micron sized is is not practical to filter out and doesn't really pose a problem until it agglomerates to particle sizes of 2-3 microns (IIRC). The oil additive packages take care of this, and other problems like acid formation, etc.

The condition of the additive package is expressed as TBN or Total Base Number. The higher the TBN the better the oil and the longer it can remain in service. The caveat is % of soot suspended in the oil. It is not uncommon to have oil with 2% soot in suspension and its fine. Most decent oils will handle up to 4% soot, again IIRC.

An oil analysis will tell you more than you ever needed to know about the condition of the oil and the engine. You don't ever really have to change ALL the oil. As long as the additive package (TBN) is replenished by the partial change and soot levels are kept under control the engine will be fine.

The chance of having an oil related problem in a sailboat diesel that has seasonal oil changes with a quality oil is remote in the extreme. The engines in our boats are designed for industrial use, thousands of hours, in machines that are frequently ignored. Our use is light by comparison.

Use quality diesel rated oil. Change it as the manual indicates and don't lose any more sleep. If you are really curious pay for an oil analysis and read up on the topic. There is tons of information about this.

The thought of removing an oil pan, and the required effort to do so, in a sailboat, to relocate the drain plug would be simply nuts. A suction device will do the trick fine.

RT

Rob, well said. A bit more technical than what I offered but ultimately a better explanation. As for the Graphite thing, Carbon takes many forms from the soft and molecularly smooth graphite at one end of the scale to diamonds at the other. Pure carbon while chemically identical take many forms, and the suit is well below graphite on that scale. A quality oil with a good additive package will keep the carbon suspended and inhibit the molecules from combining into chains large enough to be a problem. and if they do combine the filter will catch them. Hence the short answer is it is not worth the worry. Edd

Thanks for the replies!

Thanks for all the replies! I didn't expect it to get into the make up of the "old" oil left in the pan but it was still interesting reading. To be honest, I agree that the little bit of un-reachable oil left in the pan after I use my oil suction pump via the dip stick, isn't such a big deal. Still would like to know how had it would be to change the oil pan seal. Would I have to lift the engine?

Anyway, on another thing briefly touched on, getting the oil filter off of a MX25P can be messy because it's mounted sideways. (What are engine designers thinking when they do things like that?) I usually wrap a plastic bag around the filter, best I can, before I remove it. Most, not all, of the oil goes into the bag with the filer and the rest drips down onto the oil absorbent pad I place below. Next year I plan to install a fitting that will allow the filter to be mounted off the engine and right side up. It costs about $200 but I like what it does and I think it's a good investment even though it will require a little more oil because of the hoses running to and from the fitting and the filter mount.

I have heard of people punching a hole in the underside of the filter to allow most of the oil to drain out before unscrewing it. You still have to catch the oil, though. Those filters are tough and I could never get that method to work.

Oil filter relocation kits are common on motorcycles that have a filter internal to the engine that is hard to get to without removing something else, like the exhaust system. Some people claim it causes a drop in oil pressure.

I assume you refer to a spin on adapter to replaces the filter with 2 hose fittings that run to another casting that will hold the filter. they are great! It is well worth your while to spend a bit extra and have the stainless steel hoses with AN fittings. (Earl's hose is the best source I think) It will fix oil pressure loss problems caused by long rubber hose runs, eliminates the hose clamps and the hose will last forever and not leak. Edd

I was looking through the operators manual for the M25XPB in the documents and downloads section and noticed that apparently Westerbeke makes an oil filter relocation kit for that engine. The manual didn't list a part number however.

Interesting thread...

There I was, a hundred miles from home. Started engine - alarm sounds - disaster! Alternator bracket broke - Alternator fell down onto oil filter cartridge, which failed - engine oil dumped into bilge - Big problem!

This lead me to install a remote oil filter. Actually, it is a dual filter, and the cartridges are about four times the size of Universal's O.E.M. screw on filter. Mounted right at the top of the engine compartment - in full view and easy to get at. One filter is a conventional full flow type, the other is a bypass type where the oil goes through very slowly and it filters down to micron size. I use a very good synthetic oil, and pull regular samples that I send out for oil analysis. As long as the analysis is good, no need to change oil. I haven't changed my oil in years!

I have some neat pic of the installation. Unfortunately, they are 1.99 megs, and I can't figure out how to shrink them. Maybe later.

Mike Oxborrow
E-33RH "J.P. Foolish", hull #25

Ah, now things get a bit interesting! Bypass filters have been around for years but few people use them. A bypass will clean the oil to the point where it almost never needs to be changed. The caveat would be the additive package is used up and must be replenished. It is still very difficult to remove diesel soot from oil. Sub micron particles are hard to catch, a filter, bypass or other, that is efficient below 2 microns is rare in the world of consumer products.

Most engine oil filters that we are familiar with filter in the 30-40 micron range. Thats it. And that is the real reason to change the oil. Oil never really wears out. What happens is it becomes contaminated with particles, acids, etc. and must be changed. Since oil is cheap, most people don't own anything with an engine "forever", and most engines will last a very long time even without bypass filtration.

So the question becomes, why even bother with bypass filtration? I have toyed with the idea for years on most of my vehicles. A bypass system is $150-$200 for a basic setup. Not much money really. The use of high quality oil is recommended, synthetics are usually better, and with any long drain interval the oil MUST be analyzed to ensure that the additive package is maintained, particulate levels are controlled. There is not much cost savings if you consider the extra cost of synthetics and lab testing in addition to the costs for the bypass system itself and installation.

Why do it? Well, it is much easier to have oil samples tested and change out bypass elements than actually perform an oil change. The benefits would seem particularly suited to sailboat engines where access is generally a PITA. The last reason is resources. I'm not a particularly "green" person, but I have always lived a relatively simple/low impact life anyway. A bypass system means less oil used, less oil that needs to be sourced and then recycled. Granted its a very, very, very small issue but it may be one you are concerned with.

A thought on remote mounted oil filters. Consider this, the oil in an engine is like blood. Operating without it, even for just a few seconds, the engine can be turned into junk. Most engines have an engine mounted filter. Failures of this mount are extremely rare. Now take that filter, mount it remotely on two hoses and you can see the potential for failure. Proper installation of a remote system is very important. Hose runs must be well thought out, well protected against chafe, installed correctly and inspected regularly. Parker, Earls, Russel, Aeroquip, etc. all make high quality hose that will do the job. Stainless braided hose is the best but can be tough to work with, fittings difficult to assemble, etc. but lasts forever. I like Parker Push-Loc industrial hose, but its not as abrasion resistant as stainless.

Bypass systems are available from FS2000, Amsoil, Filterguard, Frantz, Gulf Coast and others. They all have their merits.

RT

Here I am again! Rob Thomas filled in the gaps in my brief note about filters. What I didn't think to mention is that the basic instructions are to change the full flow filter on about the same schedule that you would change the oil; and, to change the bypass filter about ever other time you change the full flow filter. I should also note that the filters are huge, as compared to the stock filter, and that increases the total oil capacity by at least a quart. So, when you change filters, a significant quantity of make up oil has to be added, which refreshes the oil additive package. The extra surface area of the filters also adds a bit of an oil cooler effect (at least if they are mounted where they can get some air circulation). I wouldn't recommend this set up for anyone not committed to a regular schedule of oil sampling and analysis.

I have attached two jpegs of my installation. Note the wide open easy access to the filters! If you look closely, you can see the brass petcock on the back side of the filter mount that is used to take samples. Bottom line -- the remote filter set up works for me!

Mike Oxborrow
E-33RH "J.P. Foolish", hull #25

Oil Changes

Hi Respected Owners
Changed 2016 oil yesterday and needed to confirm the 2.25 Quarts that I have been using for years. Manual is still deep in basement storage. Catalina Owner said "don't use synthetic oil."
Dam,,, I have been using Mobile 1 Diesel Oil for at least ten years and longer than that I can't remember. Works great. Oil pressure beeper indicator registers faster and goes right out. Cranks faster when cold. Easier to clean up spills. The oil that I spill on my pants actually washes out where it would not with conventional oil. The old conventional oil was thick like mustard when I used to change it. The Mobil 1 is still slippery when I throw it out. There was virtually no distribution for synthetic oil in 1981 and I do recall some very old horror stories. I'm very happy with how things are going but if I am risking the engine please let me know what you think.
Best Regards
Pat O'Connell
1981 E28+ Chips Universal 5411