m25 drawings

Does any one know where I can find measured drawings for the Universal m25 engine? I'm thinking of replacing my m25 with a m25xpb on my E32-3. I have drawings with dimensions for the xpb but can't find a similar drawing (with dimensions) for my old m25. I want to compare the two to see if a m25xpb will fit without my having to modify the engine compartment. My current engine has a cast aluminum bracket that bolts to the front of the engine to make it a 3 point mount. It would be nice to be able to use this on the new engine. Anyone out there tried this? Thanks in advance for any help. -- Mike

Mike, try this: http://www.c34.org/manuals/ServiceManual.pdf

Our C34 website has a tremendous amount of M25 series engine information that you all are welcome to make use of.
See our tech wiki on engines here: http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Diesel_Engine

Mike - Since you are thinking about replacing an M-25 with an M-25XPB why not go to the source - Westerbeke? If nothing else, they should be able to give you a drawing of the M-25 mounting layout.

Their bad info should be better than the bad info you pick up on the net.

The Washington master distributor is:

Gallery Marine
717 NE Northlake Way
Seattle WA 98105
USA
Click here for map
Contact Information:
Main Contact(s): Mr. Don Gonsorowski
Phone: (206) 547-2477
Fax: (206) 547-2180
Email: don@gallerymarine.com
Website: gallerymarine.com/galleryhome.html

Distributor Covers: Alaska, Idaho, Montana, Washington, Wyoming

M25xpb

Mike, excuse the late reply to your thread but I've been away from the
internet for a month.
I repowered in July, installing an M25XPB in place of an M25XP. Into a
1988 E34.
The short answer is no. The old front mount crossbrace will not bolt up
to the new block. That was Plan A. So I had to fibreglass an extra 8"
to the engine beds to accommodate the two front mounts. A major
operation in itself. Can't complain with the results though. Other
thana bit of a shake at idle, I can increase rpm by 100 at a time with
no roughspots. None. Smooth from 1200 to redline. Couldn't do that with
the old engine.
The new engine is a little longer which makes it a tight fit under the
engine cover. Very tight actually, but I made it with 1/4" to spare.
Hookup was straightforeward with exhaust, throttle, gearshift, starter
cables, fuel all in the same places. Shaft coupler lines up great.
Pretty happy all in all, apart from the cost !
Hope that helps.

Rob Lesnie
1988 E34 Alia
Vancouver BC

I also have given up on plan A, the three point mount. I was looking at my bed logs and they look like I can set the new engine in place without any modifications. I'm enclosing photos of the situation. I currently have about 2 inches of clearance at the front (see photo). Do you think that is enough?
I'm going to the boat today to double-check some measurements.
I also am wondering how to get the old engine out and the new one in. The boat will be in the water and in it's slip... Thanks everyone for your help.

I noticed the blue bracket attached to your alternator. Can you post a picture of your alternator mounting setup? I am currently awaiting delivery of the modified alternator mount for my M18 engine and am curious to see what method you used. Did you use any part of the newer, modified mount for the M25?

Alternator Bracket

Mark, I got the original idea from this site (or maybe the catalina 34 site) where they used a turnbuckle arrangement. I didn't have a turnbuckle that size so I got a piece of steel bar at home Depot. I cut the slot using a dremel tool and drill. It took me two tries but it was relatively easy. The aluminum piece on the bottom was a piece of scrap I had laying around. I had trouble with the previous mount which was on the boat (Balmer?) keeping enough tension. Oh I had to be careful that the bracket did not interfer with the fan on the alternator.

That improvement on Mike's boat is way cool indeed.
I recall that there is a pic on this site of an Ericson with the turnbuckle setup.
The thing is.... you kinda need the Universal diesel Ericson "saddle" front single mount frame in order to do this.
I have a four point mount on my very similar Universal M25XP and there's no obvious place to put this alternator support in place, much as I'd like to do so.

I have been sketching out some alternatives that would use the present mount top stud, but have not reached the point of building a model yet.

"It's always something!" As Roseanne Rosanna-Dana used to say.....

Thanks for the additional pics. I have seen the pictures of the turnbuckle version, too. It does look like you have the modified upper mounting bracket for the alternator. I can see the tab on the front case where the original bracket used to be attached.

I have looked at my original bracket, the routing of the coolant hose from the pump and the drawings of the modified bracket kit and can't see how the lower adjusting bracket in the mod kit is going to clear the coolant hose. Maybe it will make more sense when the actual bracket kit arrives.

I do like your alternative for the lower bracket. However, I would consider drilling and bolting your attachment block at the bottom through the engine mount. I would be afraid the "clamping" arrangement might slip at some point.

I was afraid to drill into the motor bracket which is cast aluminum I think. Not being a metallurgist I took what I thought was the most prudent course. Slippage is a concern but so far it hasn't done so. If drilling into the casting is possible I think that would be preferred. Maybe there is an expert out there that can enlighten me.

M25xpb

Mike, you'll need all of that 2" for the XPB.
The engine beds for the front mounts look to be a non-problem judging
by your photos.
The new engine has it's own electric fuel pump so you don't need the
Facet. In hindsight I should have plumbed it in if no other reason than
to help reprime the Racor after a filter change.
The only glitch I encountered after running was air entering the Racor
outlet, cured by retaping the 1/4"NPT elbow and screwing it in tight.
Without the Facet, the new engine does not tolerate air in the fuel. As
a precaution I also ran fuel hose and barbed fittings between the Racor
and fuel tank. (It was originally pipe with flare fittings.)
You have a Sherwood pump instead of the Oberdorfer and its about a foot
longer to the strainer. It should have the sleeve upgrade, to take any
strain off the drive inside the timing case.
You can get a 71amp alternator upgrade, there may be others.
The gauge panel fits in the old opening and the harness is a snap,
literally. Startup is a two thumb operation with 5 sec preheat, and
I've got no intention to do the old wiring mod there.
I chose a "Westerbeke" riser style exhaust elbow. They clamp onto the
manifold. I ran new Trident exhaust hose to the muffler and transom. It
is 2" as I recall (I don't have access to my notes right now). So I
chose to thread a nipple (1 3/4" ?) INSIDE the elbow outlet, and turn a
few ridges to help the hose clamps. It is not 2" ID all the way as
Universal recommends but they use the same elbow up to the M40 anyway.
It has been fine for me. The hose hardly gets warm to the touch even at
high cruise speed.
The owner's manual recommends 2000 to 2500 rpm cruise, with 3000 max.
So it should use your old prop no problem. I favour the top end of that
range even if it uses a little more fuel, about 0.7gph.
There is no compression release built into the valve cover.
As I said earlier, all in all I'm happy.
In the water changeout will be a challenge but you seem like a
resourceful guy. The factory spray paint everything before it goes in
the crate so spin the motor mount nuts all the way up and down to peel
the paint off the studs. Do this on the dock, it'll save an hour during
alignment.
It seems like engine replacement is all but decided. What lead to this
decision/conclusion?

Rob Lesnie
E34 Alia
Vancouver BC

I did something very similar to Mike's setup, but I used the alternator bracket off of an old Dodge and a piece of angle iron for the lower bracket. Drilling the forward engine mounting bracket was not a problem, based on 14 seasons.

I also have the pic of the turnbuckle and have been thinking for years how to make the end fittings. One of these days.... but in another ten years I won't have to bother.

I don't like the second turnbuckle method shown because the forces are not in line.

The third pic of the turnbuckle arrangement is the one I remember seeing and always thought it was a kind of hinky arrangement. The second pic with the closed turnbuckles and locking nuts seems more reliable. I still think the simplicity of the bar stock strap is sufficient. Could maybe be made even more substantial with a strap on each side of the alternator ear?

I can see now how the mod kit adjusting strap will clear the coolant hose due to the stand-off on the upper mount. (I must have been looking at the drawing wrong...d'oh!) Still like the idea of attaching the lower side of the alternator to the engine mount.

Rob, Thanks for the input on the engine. I went to the local dealer here (Cook Engines) but they were not at this time able to locate installation drawings for the M25. They did however, have drawings for the M25 XP which may be similar. I can see that it is about 2 inches shorter than the XPB (27.5 vs. 29.4) inches. I checked yesterday and I have about 2.5 inches in front of the engine to spare, in addition I could cut into 1 inch of sound insulation so it looks like it may fit. The dealer was going to contact Westerbeke today to see if there are drawings around for the M25. Apparently I’m not allowed to contact them directly!

As to why I’m thinking of this, that’s a good question. The transmission started leaking about four years ago- also a disturbing whining noise started about the same time. I think that the noise is from the transmission because when I take it out of gear the noise stops. I feel uncomfortable with a transmission that in my imagination could stop at any moment.

The engine has a tremendous amount of blow-by which can be messy even though I have routed the breather tube around to the air intake.

It takes about 25 seconds of glow plug time to start (with modification).

The raw water pump seal is leaking (for the second time in a year). Not a big deal.

The number of engine hours is unknown since the hour meter has been replaced and there is no record of the previous hours.

The boat was previously in a San Francisco sailing club and I don’t think that it received the TLC that it deserved. The engine is 25 years old.

The tach is a little sticky and can't be relied on +/- 200 rpm.

I know that I could address some of these issues separately and perhaps save some dough but at my advanced age I’m tempted to start over with everything new. A new engine would fix the transmission, blow-by, hard starting, water pump and tach as well as give me everything new instead of 25 yrs old.
The good news is that it doesn’t smoke and doesn’t seem to use any oil.

How did you attach the engine mounts to the bed logs?

I'm a little concerned about your mileage. My present M25 gives 0.45 gal per hour at 2500 rpm.
Mike

Kubota by another name

http://www.betamarinenc.com/BETA 30.html

Beta does not seem to have any difficulty putting their drawings up on the web.

Local dealer(s) in our area, too.
Mike, you otter call Tom B about a quote since he's a dealer for Beta...

Decision time

Mike, I expect others to weigh in on this .....
Your concerns with the current donk are mostly fixable. Just bolt a
brand new tranny on the back (change the rear seal? why not!). It
doesn't smoke, lucky you. 25sec glow plug is normal for XP's I think.
You'll probably need to spring for a new shaft in the Oberdorfer.
Pricey. I went through the same decision process. You are still left
with an engine with it's best years behind it. Nurse it along for
another ten years or repower now in the off-season. Or wait till you
have a crisis far from home in the middle of summer?

Talking about best years, I am still able to do most of the physical
work that goes into an engine change. Ten years from now I might not be
so spry. I paid very few mechanics hours, doing most all the hookup
myself. In an E34, the deep locker has to be emptied to change the
harness and exhaust. (Pulling the holding tank was a great chance to
replace sanitary hoses). And the paranoia (how old is that PSS bellows?
Mine got changed). I like the Ericson and want to keep it, so why not
get a nice smooth running engine NOW.

Only I backed myself into a corner. They caught me in a moment of
weakness ("they" being the Nanaimo BC Westerbeke dealer, they had an
M25XPB in the crate, right there, looking very shiny). Straw that broke
the camel's back? The injector pump had started leaking fuel out the
top in a big way, this in addition to the weeping #2 injector. I'd just
pulled the bloody cylinder head last year and now this! In July.
Gartside in Sidney said they'd had good success changing the plunger
seals from the top, fishing them out with dental picks. Takes only a
few hours but they were booked solid. Spin on a fuel filter full of
neat Stanadyne was another tip. A good slug of the stuff might stop the
problem. Etc. Etc.

Why should the next owner get the benefit of a new engine ? So I took
the plunge. If there was a Betamarine dealer I might well have gone
that route. They do look a very good package, probably superior. (Their
28hp model looks to be the same block as mine, and I would say 3000rpm
max, no way 3600.) Just imagine, blissful confidence in the machinery,
for a few years at least.

Oh, you're questions.
My motor mounts are attached with lag bolts, 3" I think. Some engine
beds have a metal plate bonded in, so tap and use a threaded bolt. You
have to pilot drill to find out what you have.
The 0.7gph figure is high but I'm running it at a fairly high rpm.
Especially for the break in season I didn't want to lug it. It runs
beautifully at 2200-2300, low 6's for speed and probably 0.5gph, which
is what the old engine got. The law of diminishing returns really kicks
in when you go from 6.2kn to 6.7kn.

Rob

pick said:

R...but they were not at this time able to locate installation drawings for the M25. They did however, have drawings for the M25 XP which may be similar. I can see that it is about 2 inches shorter than the XPB (27.5 vs. 29.4) inches. ....The dealer was going to contact Westerbeke today to see if there are drawings around for the M25. Apparently I’m not allowed to contact them directly!
It takes about 25 seconds of glow plug time to start (with modification).

The raw water pump seal is leaking (for the second time in a year). Not a big deal.

I'm a little concerned about your mileage. My present M25 gives 0.45 gal per hour at 2500 rpm.

Click to expand...

Mike,

The engine dimensions are included on page 3 od the link I provided earlier, the one where someone said don't trust what you get on the internet. http://www.c34.org/manuals/ServiceManual.pdf

Call Joe Joyce at Westerbeke, he's a treasure and a great guy, forget what the dealer told you.

Pump seals are funny. I replaced our Oberdorfer in 1999 and it's still working fine. I made the mistake of paying Universal prices (for convenience) but can get them from Sen Dure for much less $$.

The glow plug solenoid trick saves half the time to warm up the plugs, written up on our C34 Tech wiki, previously linked above.

Our fuel use is 0.493 gallons per hour over 12 years on an M25. Larger engines use more fuel, that's all.

Good luck.

Those alternator turnbuckle pictures are very, very helpful.