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E25 Holding tank size?

adamd

Member II
Hi, I currently have what looks like a porta potty with pumpout. I was considering a Jabsco compact with holding tank conversion.
I'd have to add a holding tank and a through hull for the water inlet.
(maybe this won't get done this year)

So I guess I'm wondering what size holding tank fits under the Vberth, and whats considered the stock size?

Thanks!
Adam
 

Glyn Judson

Moderator
Moderator
What size holding tank?

Adam, I can only tell you what the factory fitted to my former boat, an E25+ and I really don't know if the space beneath your V-berth compares but it was a Ronco 11W, a 13-gallon tank measuring 21" long, 13" wide and 13" high. As an aside, that's the same size tank that was factory installed in our E31. As a matter of fact, someone had scribbled E25+ on the top of the tank in our E31. I might add here that when it comes to holding tanks, larger is not necessarily better. One of the key factors in keeping a tank from becoming a horrible odor is to empty it frequently and obviously not let waste stand in it any unnecessary length of time. Plan the use of your head judiciously and take advantage of onshore facilities as a partial means of doing so when you can. Search the archives using the key word Odorlos for detailed use of this fantastic product which will rid any boat of head odors once and for all. Here's an idea, fashion a cardboard box the size of the 11W tank and move it around under the V-berth to see if it would work there for you. It might ultimately necessitate making a plywood shelf for any tank you end up using but I can tell you that when I replaced the tank in our present boat due to a cracked and leaking fitting, the 1/2" plywood shelf was distorted so I remade one from 3/4" plywood and that did the trick. Good luck, GLyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey, CA
 

davisr

Member III
Adam,

I took some measurements in the V-Berth of my E25, cb, several months ago. As you know from looking at your recently purchased E25, cb, there are three separate compartments in the V. The one that is most aft, is, of course, the largest one, and is the one that is adjacent to the head (separated only by a bulkhead). According to my measurements, the maximum size holding tank that I could install would be a 15 gallon one with the dimensions 15 x 11 x 25. This would still allow room around the sides for the storage of misc items. It would also still allow access to the depth sounder thru-hull. I am partial, though, to Glyn's advice about a 13 gallon tank being large enough (perhaps too large), not only on account of the odor issue, but also on account of the additional space that a smaller tank would provide for the storage of misc items. I also want access to the thru-hull to be as easy as possible in the event that it should fail, whereupon I would be more likely to stop the inflow of water in a timely manner.

Best regards,
Roscoe
 

adamd

Member II
Thank you both for the advice and dimensions. I'll start my project soon. I'm assuming I'll have to add 2 through hulls as well.
 

Glyn Judson

Moderator
Moderator
Installing a total head system from scratch.

Adam, Might I suggest that you get hold of a West Marine Catalog and in the Plumbing & Ventilation section, you'll find the West Advisor pages (pale blue in color)? Take a look at what they call "Our Favorite Method" and study the routing of the plumbing in the illustration. Give thought to basing your installation in that. Now, given that you are in Montreal and that I haven't the foggiest idea what the overboard discharge laws are, you may or may not want to include a second through hull fitting on the discharge side. Actually, if it were me, I would install two through hull fittings anyway and if local regulations prohibited overboard discharge, I'd disable that seacock. I say that because I'd be thinking about the day I were to sell the boat and wouldn't want the lack of a seacock there to be a deal breaker, but that's crazy me. Anyhow, back to the illustration. I have installed a number of head systems exactly like their method with one major exception. I use a T-fitting where they show a Y-valve at #8. Stare at it for a few seconds and you'll see that the Y-valve doesn't really get you much. After all, if you cleanse the tank with clean water be it salt, brackish or fresh, the length of hose between the macerator and the seacock will only contain clean water anyhow. It's as simple as it can get that way and works just fine for overboard or on deck pump out discharge. Hint: If your laws are like USCG regulations here, the seacock has to be locked closed when not in use or at least made difficult to open. My solution has been to remove the stainless handle from the side of the seacock and attach it to a tether that ends up disappearing into the dry bilge. It's closed when not in use and totally disabled insofar as there is no handle attached to it. In order to open it one had has to consciously retrieve the handle and slip it onto the seacock to use it. That seemed to satisfy the Coast Guard when I clearly told them that was what I planned to do before my first installation. What they're after is something that makes you go well out of your way to open that seacock and apparently this qualifies. Hope this helps, Glyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Marina del REy, CA
 

davisr

Member III
I like that West Marine diagram too. Glyn's got a lot of experience in all this, so I don't know what his opinion would be, but I have learned a great deal from Don Casey's two books, Sail Boat Maintenance and Repair (lots o' drawings) and This Old Boat (lots o' words). The two of them together have taught me so much, not just about heads, but about a host of other maintenance issues. Got them for a great price on Amazon.com.

As far as my work on the head is concerned (which will be coming after my electrical work and deck work), I'm trying to decide where to put the Y valve. Currently the Y allows for direct discharge and is not locked or "disabled" in the way that Glyn describes. There is a hose that runs to a "holding tank," which is really just a fake, I guess a gesture towards attemping to satisfy USCG demands. By fake, I mean that it is a five gallon plastic jug with no outlet for pumpout. In other words, if you pumped waste into it from the head, you'd have to just let it sit there, or remove the tank completely and go dump it. It's not even set up to be removed. Therefore, it's just a fake. Clearly the previous owner just pumped overboard directly from the head.

Roscoe
 

adamd

Member II
Glyn, Your advice makes sense. In fact I wanted at least the ability to pump out from the deck. So I can see how it could limit my selling market if I don't plan for a direct pump out.
That being said, I dont know if in this area it makes sense. The boat will probably spend it's entire life inland, on the great lakes. There is a strict no discharge rule.

I also have to account for price. I've been reading a bit on installing thru hulls and seacocks and to not install cheap seacocks. http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/seacock_primer (A good Read)

So when I price out 2 seacocks, a head, a holding tank and various hoses,fittings, special glue and other materials I'm into this for about $1000.

Does that make sense?

Jabsco compact head $150
Jabsco head (small) $150
Cheap Seacock http://www.pridemarine.com/index.cfm?category=10036|10712|10827&product=5147734&code=408972 8.99???
OR
Westmarine Groco seacock 149-294
OR (I just saw these now)
Westmarine CONBRACO seacock 69.99-359

For Discharge I'd probably need 2", but for water to flush the head, could I get away with 3/4" ?
 

Glyn Judson

Moderator
Moderator
Seacocks vs. ball valves.

Adam, The Pride Marine example you show is a brass ball valve as opposed to a bronze seacock and you want the latter. Go to the Groco link here http://www.groco.net/ to download their catalog. In it you will see a proper seacock and a new innovation Groco recently came up with, a flanged base that allows the use of more affordable bronze ball valves. The two types can be seen on their catalog pages #3 & #6 and especially their page #9 which describes their flanged adapters. All hardware of this type has to be BRONZE and not brass to be done properly and to ABYC standards. The balls are either stainless or chromed BRONZE. This is not always the case with more affordable brass ball valves such as found in Home Depot, etc which are more than likely chromed brass. Also note that there are two methods of installing the flange to the hull. One is to through bolt them, the other is to lag screw them into the backing pad. Groco has an illustration of the two methods which I couldn't find this morning. Others can direct you to that page I'm sure. For what it's worth, I used the second (bronze) lag screw method for all the seacocks in my boat. The pads are 3/4" marine plywood saturated in several coats of West System #105 and the lag screws were all bedded at installation. Take it slow and easy, a little bit at a time and the costs will not hit you like a freight train if you do it all at once. Hope this helps, Glyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey, CA
 

Mark F

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Hi Adam,

Does your head have a sink? If so you should be able to use the drain thru-hull for your raw water intake.
 

adamd

Member II
Hi Adam,

Does your head have a sink? If so you should be able to use the drain thru-hull for your raw water intake.


Yes, It has a sink. I know it has a water tank located near the sink, would it have the ability to pull water from both or just the tank?
There should be a y valve somewhere under the sink I assume?

Thanks
 
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Emerald

Moderator
Westmarine Groco seacock 149-294
OR (I just saw these now)
Westmarine CONBRACO seacock 69.99-359

For Discharge I'd probably need 2", but for water to flush the head, could I get away with 3/4" ?

Hi,

Check out Hamilton Marine for a much better price on seacocks and related bronze fittings e.g. barbs. From here:

http://store.hamiltonmarine.com/browse.cfm/sea-cocks/2,557.html

we see the 3/4 Groco GRO-FBV-750 full flow flanged seacocks are $35.99 and 1 1/4" GRO-FBV-1250 are $61.49

and, if you go for the Apollo, you still save some money :egrin:
 

Mark F

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Since you have a sink you should have a thru-hull for the drain. I think it's common to use the sink drain thru-hull as the head raw water supply. I added a sink to the head in my E27 and tee'd into the existing head raw water supply thru-hull for the sink drain.

In practice I fill the sink with fresh water, do my business, wash my hands then use the sink water to flush. Doing this enables me to use fresh water to flush and I rarely open the raw water/sink drain thru-hull.

Do you know where your sink drains?

Here is a photo of the plumbing, you can see the tee for the supply/drain.
 

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adamd

Member II
Since you have a sink you should have a thru-hull for the drain. I think it's common to use the sink drain thru-hull as the head raw water supply. I added a sink to the head in my E27 and tee'd into the existing head raw water supply thru-hull for the sink drain.

In practice I fill the sink with fresh water, do my business, wash my hands then use the sink water to flush. Doing this enables me to use fresh water to flush and I rarely open the raw water/sink drain thru-hull.

Do you know where your sink drains?

Here is a photo of the plumbing, you can see the tee for the supply/drain.


Oh sorry, I thought you meant a sink in general. There's no sink in the head. sorry for the confusion.
 
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