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E33RH headstay

Surfin Tiki

Member I
I'm looking for the pin to pin measurement for an E33RH "stock" head stay.

The current arrangement on my boat is an old Mariner roller furling system; sail hanks, head stay spins on big swivels on the top and bottom. It is difficult to get an accurate measurement around this contraption.
 

Surfin Tiki

Member I
original rigging specs. document?

Found this document folded into one of the boat's original blueprints. Looks like the original headstay was 41.11
Does this look doc look familiar to anyone?
 

Attachments

  • Hull17rigging1981.jpg
    Hull17rigging1981.jpg
    161.4 KB · Views: 94

Seth

Sustaining Partner
Looks close

Is this for a new HS or for tuning?

For tuning, Loren has spent some time on them recently, and there is another in the NE doing some racing. I just can't recall where we ended up on the factory boat-but in fact the ideal length will depend on where you sail-longer HS for light air and shorter (6" maybe) for heavy air locales..

Tell us your objective and we can can go from there...

Cheers,
S
 

Surfin Tiki

Member I
This is for a new head stay and upgraded furling system. I might add that the back stay is fixed and will be replaced as well. Consequently, optimal head stay length needs to be dialed in first. 15 -18kt wind speed is the average day. I club race NS class and cruise the CA channel islands. The submitted document is the original rigging spec for my boat, hull #17.

Thanks,
Joel
 
Last edited:

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Headstay ponderings

Guys,
I was just out on Mike's E-33RH today, but only to motor it over to the yard for a bottom job....
This whole thread kind of puzzles me (like a lot of things do as I get older!)
:rolleyes:
When I put a furler on my boat back in '95, along with a new head stay, I recall that we measured the distance, pin to pin. for the existing stay. From that the new stay was cut and installed and final take-up was done on the integral turn buckle in the Harken unit.

Whether cruising or racing, we tension the headstay with the hydraulic backstay adjuster... as does my friend with his E-33RH.
Perhaps it's more complicated and I was too naive to realize it.:nerd:

One other piece of information in this thread that really puzzles me is the statement that the E-33RH backstay is "fixed". On Mike's E-33, and a sistership that used to moor here, the factory system was a multiple-part tackle with a lead emerging on either side of the inside of the transom, where the driver might pull on it with might and main. (It took a lot of pulling...) Mike long ago replaced the whole mess with a hydraulic cylinder pump.

If I still do not even understand the problem (or the solution...) please write some more and tell me how.

Regards,
Loren
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
HS stuff

Because the 33RH has in-line spreaders, the backstay adjuster is not super effective for adjusting HS tension. It will have some effect, but more than anything it will just bend the mast and flatten the mainsail (or make it fuller as you ease it).. The only real method of making HS tension adjustments on this boat when sailing is to use running backstays-which intersect the mast at the hounds...

Also-while it is true that runners or backstay adjusters can impact headstay tension (which one will depend on the type of rig and spreaders)-they do NOT affect HS length, which is really RAKE, and what this thread is about.

For any given boat, there is an optimal RAKE setting, defined primarily by HS length (but not tension), for the type of sailing you are doing (upwind, downwind, light air, heavy air, etc.). Many folks just want a setting for the average of their conditions, which is what I think is happening here.

It seems on this boat, the BS tackle has been removed so there is no adjustment available for the backstay, and he is not using runners, so I think he is looking for the HS length (RAKE) which will be an average setting taking into account he is not using a backstay adjuster or runners.

Tiki: If you have been happy with the boat's feel and performance with your current setup, go up on a spare halyard with a tape (or you can use the main halyard) and get a pin to pin measurement. Or measure the old gear when you drop it. Use this for your best guess. Get a long barrel turnbuckle for the new HS so you can shorten or lengthen it 4-6" either way after it is installed.

My question about whether you are happy with your setup is this: Are you pointing OK in light air? If so, you have enough rake. If not, you should lengthen the HS a bit. If you feel you are overpowered in the typical conditions (assuming you have the right sails up) with a lot of weather helm, you should remove some rake (shorten the HS)...

Since you sail this boat without the benefit of runners or BS adjuster, you will have to play with it until you are happy.

If I were guessing, I would shoot for about 4-6" of aft rake with the boat at rest for your type of sailing-if you want to look at it this way.

I will say this, if you do not use the BS adjuster or runners, there is no setting which is going to be ideal in all conditions. You may want to at least have a base # of turns on the HS for baseline conditions, and ease it off 2-4 turns if it is going to be a light day, or take it up a few turns if it looks like it is going to snort.

No boat will sail to its' potential in all conditions with one rig setting:esad:

Hope this helps some:egrin:

Cheers,
S
 

Surfin Tiki

Member I
Seth,

I believe that you have answered my questions. I will: 1. Use long barrel turn buckles on the new HS and BS (currently non adjustable/cruising mode). Set mast rake at between 4-6 inches (this is where it is at now, so good). 2. Adjust BS turnbuckle until satisfied with prebend/HS tention.

To clarify for Loren,
I have included a diagram of the old 1982 Mariner roller furler . It is similar to dinghy furling where the HS wire spins, yet sized for larger craft. It is an after market item, so I really had no way of knowing if it was the right length to begin with. Seth's recommendation of 4-6 inches of mast rake confirms that it is the correct length.

My back stay is fixed, with just a turnbuckle. When the HS is too tight, the unit will not furl properly. Consequently the HS is always too loose. Because the HS is too loose, pointing ability and rig tune are difficult to gauge. A properly sized HS and normal furling system will eliminate these issues.

Thanks again for your help.

Joel
 

Attachments

  • Mariner furler 82.pdf
    101.9 KB · Views: 74

CSMcKillip

Moderator
Moderator
Found this document folded into one of the boat's original blueprints. Looks like the original headstay was 41.11
Does this look doc look familiar to anyone?

Is there any way you could scan in the blueprints and email them for me, or if you have a reprographic company near you have them scann the documents, I will pay for the cost, email me please.....

Chris McKillip
Ericson 33RH hull 23
 

Surfin Tiki

Member I
I will see what I have when I go to the boat this weekend. There are at least three - an overall side view, electrical and plumbing? I think. They are actuall "blue" prints of about 24"X18" or so and somewhat faded from always being on the boat. How do I find your e-mail on this site?
 

CSMcKillip

Moderator
Moderator
I will see what I have when I go to the boat this weekend. There are at least three - an overall side view, electrical and plumbing? I think. They are actuall "blue" prints of about 24"X18" or so and somewhat faded from always being on the boat. How do I find your e-mail on this site?

Chris Mckillip
Mckillip at valornet.com
918-812- four 55 four

thank you so much, I really could use this
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
Good deal

Just remember that because you have a frac rig with inline spreaders, the BS turnbuckle will have some, but limited impact on HS tension on your rig (as opposed to a masthead rigged boat). The HS turnbuckle will have a more direct effect on this.

The BS turnbuckle will affect mast bend (NOT prebend) much more than HS tension.

Prebend is created/removed primarily by by a combination of mast step location and placement of the mast in the deck partners (aft mast step and fwd partner placement=max prebend)..

Cheers!
 

CSMcKillip

Moderator
Moderator
I have been up to the boat once this month, it was a short visit and have read the tuning guide for the mast, I have a couple of questions.

1. I race a smaller Capri 25, masthead rig is the fractional rig going to feel different changing gears?

2. Is the mast on the E33RH stepped thru the deck and rest on the keel?

3. Is there different shims for the mast at the deck level?

4. Who makes a good mast boot for the deck connection, I am getting some water in the boat in this area?

5. Resealing the side ports worth the time or replace with new ones.

6. Is this a balsa cored boat? Or was coremat used?
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
Questions

I have been up to the boat once this month, it was a short visit and have read the tuning guide for the mast, I have a couple of questions.

1. I race a smaller Capri 25, masthead rig is the fractional rig going to feel different changing gears?
-Sort of-a Frac rig boat is primarily mainsail driven, and performs better upwind with the biggest mainsail you can live with; this means go to smaller jibs before reefing. For best performance, reef only when you are out of smaller jibs to go to..Basic theory is the same, flatten the main as the breeze comes up, drop the genoa leads aft. Both of these designs are relatively tender and must be kept on their feet..flat is fast!

2. Is the mast on the E33RH stepped thru the deck and rest on the keel?
-Keel stepped (unless modified)

3. Is there different shims for the mast at the deck level?
-Yes. Or put more clearly you can shim it as required to get your prebend optimized for your mainsail. If your main is really full, you might want more prebend (mast step in the aft position, and pushed forward at the deck), or if your main is really flat, do the reverse.

4. Who makes a good mast boot for the deck connection, I am getting some water in the boat in this area?
-There are some very nice mast boots out there, but I can't remember who makes them. I will check on this and get back to you..

5. Resealing the side ports worth the time or replace with new ones.
-If the frames are good you can and should re-seal them..


6. Is this a balsa cored boat? Or was coremat used
-The hull is solid and uses the TAFG for structural strength and stiffness. The deck is balsa cored, with the balsa removed and replaced with plywood in high load areas (like winch pads)

Cheers!

S
 

Rocinante33

Contributing Partner
Sorry to check in late here. To go back to one of the original questions, yes, that checklist is very similar to one I have in my boat (hull # 24). I think mine is a slightly different format, but similar. 41' sounds correct for the headstay dimension, but I am away from the boat now.

I too have a complete (maybe or maybe not) set of the plans from when the boat was constructed. They would not be easy to copy, though, as they are blueprint sized documents and are brittle with age.

As always, Seth has the definitive, unique & knowledgeable views about this model (& many others).

You did read the rig tuning guides in the "owners bulletins" in the Links, Resources & Downloads section of this site, right? Those were in my nav table with the blueprints when I bought the boat.

Joel,

Maybe we will see you out there in the channel some time!
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
Mast boot

For the Ben 36.7, and lots of other boats Charleston Spar makes it. Part # below:

INJECTED WEDGE F385
36072000385

Go to the website and you can see a pic. They can help figure out if you need a slightly different size for your rig, but I bet they are quite close.
Good luck!

S
 

CSMcKillip

Moderator
Moderator
If someone would trust me with the blielines, I am in architecture and have the correct reprographic copier to transfuse the blielines to a readable PDF document. It would take me an hour to copy the blielines and adjust in Photoshop then export to a file that would be uploaded to our file section. Originals would be shipped back to the owner with a full sized copy and digital files.

Let me know,

Chris McKillip
 

holland33

New Member
Found this document folded into one of the boat's original blueprints. Looks like the original headstay was 41.11
Does this look doc look familiar to anyone?

Hi
You wouldn't happen to have a better image of this document would you? It would be nice to see the right column. Thanks
 
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