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To cutter-rig or not

Sven

Seglare
The E39 and 39B were offered with and without a cutter stay.

Now that we are completely upgrading the rig I asked for the estimate to include a removable/stowable cutterstay with running backstays.

Thoughts ?



-Sven
 

Emerald

Moderator
Hi Sven,

I can't speak to your model of boat with the inner forestay, but in general, I love the flexibility of the cutter sail plan, and in this respect would investigate it for your boat, especially with your offshore plans. I am assuming you have roller furling, like I do. In general, I look at roller furling as more of a convenient storage mechanism versus a way of effectively reducing sail and maintaining performance in high wind. Once you start furling, your pointing ability starts to diminish as the draft changes, and you're really compromised, IMO. With the cutter, as the wind picks up, just furl up that forward headsail (yankee) and sail with a full proper shaped staysail that is the right sail area for the conditions, and because it's not furled, still has all the performance you want and need in those conditions. It also brings the effort in closer to the center of the boat instead of having the sail out at the end of the bow to push it around.

Other thoughts I would say is that the staysail may or may not be an asset for pointing depending on the shape of your genoa/yankee. You will probably find the greatest benefit not pointing and not DDW.

Obviously, the Independence 31 is a very different boat than yours, so hopefully some others can chime in with first hand thoughts on rigging your boat with the inner stay like a cutter rig.
 

HughHarv

Hugh
Good question, sure will look forward to all the comments on this subject. I was reading about this very subject, one opinion says the complexity and expense of runners and staysail stay isn't worth it as it really doesn't get used that much on most boats and if you want a useful back-up install dual headstays and use one to hank on heavy weather sails and another to furl a sail. Another added a solent stay (taking the stay from the masthead to a point on deck about 1/4 back way back to the mast to avoid adding runners. Maybe it all boils down to how you use your boat and personal choice and staysail & runners are the way to go?
 

Sven

Seglare
Another added a solent stay (taking the stay from the masthead to a point on deck about 1/4 back way back to the mast to avoid adding runners. Maybe it all boils down to how you use your boat and personal choice and staysail & runners are the way to go?

I gather that you don't have a cutter stay on your 39 ? Do you know if she is set up for one ?

One issue with fitting one on Senta II is that the only logical attachment point on deck is at the forward bulkhead which is right behind the pulpit. Otherwise there would have to also be a removable stay down through the v-berth to carry the load to the hull. That is very far forward, probably too far forward for a solent which was my first choice after reading Mike Perham discussing how he used his.


-Sven
 

stillwater

Member II
Inner Forestay or Baby Stay?

Hi 39 folks,
In deciding whether you want a cutter rig and/or a baby stay I think a few things need to be determined for each sailor and area. Here in the NW we encounter lots of days going to windward and running. Tacking to get anywhere around here is a way of life. Being said, a boat (any boat) with a inner forestay is a Royal PITA tacking every few minutes even if you do not have the staysail set. I'm sure there are those in favor for open water use but my ocean experiences kept the staysail in the bag. Mast support is another issue. An inner forestay and /or baby stay can keep the mast from pumping when the boat is encountering large seas.

The 39 is a good sailor to weather in a large variety of wind strengths. I set my boat up with a large furler and use a variety of sails. I prefer sailing with the proper sail but the large furler allows reefing in heavy air conditions when needed. I have a short hoist (42') x 17' ft #3, a 48' x 21' #2 (used most of the time) and a 50'6" x 27' #1. The #3 is high cut and can be rolled/reefed, too. If we are going to weather in 25+ this is our sail. Off the wind I prefer the versatility of the #2 rolled up.

I can imagine a cutter rig could give more/(better?) options. Is it worth the effort/expense?

Whatever ideas you have, please resist any that includes a clubfoot boom. They can be incredibly dangerous flailing about while setting or stiking a sail or gybing. I think the 39b for sale in Seattle has one?!

I feel that any inner forestay or baby stay should have a attachment to the hull with wire or rod and not to a bulkhead or deck fitting. I've included a picture where the baby stay is on my 39. There is a connection to the hull just forward of the door in the stateroom. On the double spreader rig I suppose one could go from the uppers.

I'm sure my 2 cents muddies the waters! but different ideas that work are always good!

Regards,
Dal
E39 "Stillwater" #36
 

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HughHarv

Hugh
I gather that you don't have a cutter stay on your 39 ? Do you know if she is set up for one ?

icon2.gif
The track has been removed and the holes filled, albeit poorly, but I believe my 39 was set up with the adjustable car on a track that ran from just in front of the forward hatch to a few feet from the bow. Other than a reinforcing plate running full lenght of the track there was no other support. The track apparently spread the load of the stay along the deck? Haven't gone so far as to inspect where the stay mounted mounted on the mast, maybe at the masthead.

One issue with fitting one on Senta II is that the only logical attachment point on deck is at the forward bulkhead which is right behind the pulpit. Otherwise there would have to also be a removable stay down through the v-berth to carry the load to the hull. That is very far forward, probably too far forward for a solent which was my first choice after reading Mike Perham discussing how he used his.


-Sven

icon2.gif
The 39 flush-deck has a bulkhead around four or five feet aft of the bow. Probably close enough to 25% of J to be able to fit a solent stay, and a rod running down to the hull would be stronger.
 

richwilson

Member I
Hi 39 folks,
In deciding whether you want a cutter rig and/or a baby stay I think a few things need to be determined for each sailor and area. Here in the NW we encounter lots of days going to windward and running. Tacking to get anywhere around here is a way of life. Being said, a boat (any boat) with a inner forestay is a Royal PITA tacking every few minutes even if you do not have the staysail set. I'm sure there are those in favor for open water use but my ocean experiences kept the staysail in the bag. Mast support is another issue. An inner forestay and /or baby stay can keep the mast from pumping when the boat is encountering large seas.

The 39 is a good sailor to weather in a large variety of wind strengths. I set my boat up with a large furler and use a variety of sails. I prefer sailing with the proper sail but the large furler allows reefing in heavy air conditions when needed. I have a short hoist (42') x 17' ft #3, a 48' x 21' #2 (used most of the time) and a 50'6" x 27' #1. The #3 is high cut and can be rolled/reefed, too. If we are going to weather in 25+ this is our sail. Off the wind I prefer the versatility of the #2 rolled up.

I can imagine a cutter rig could give more/(better?) options. Is it worth the effort/expense?

Whatever ideas you have, please resist any that includes a clubfoot boom. They can be incredibly dangerous flailing about while setting or stiking a sail or gybing. I think the 39b for sale in Seattle has one?!

I feel that any inner forestay or baby stay should have a attachment to the hull with wire or rod and not to a bulkhead or deck fitting. I've included a picture where the baby stay is on my 39. There is a connection to the hull just forward of the door in the stateroom. On the double spreader rig I suppose one could go from the uppers.

I'm sure my 2 cents muddies the waters! but different ideas that work are always good!

Regards,
Dal
E39 "Stillwater" #36

I would have to say I love my cutter rig, and really don't have any trouble tacking it, except when running downwind. In that instance, there usually isn't enough "pop" to get the headsail through the slot, and I do end up going forward to help it out occasionally. On any other point of sail, it works great, and the self-tacking staysail is really nice.
 

Sven

Seglare
We decided on the removable cutter stay

I doubt we'll use it in a double headsail configuration unless we expect to be on the same tack all day, but we'll have it for a true hank-on stormjib.

Mike Perham raved about his solent and that was a really tempting alternative but the local riggers seem more comfortable with conventional cutter rigs with running backstays so that settled it.

I am still a bit nervous about having the cutter stay tied into the anchor locker bulkhead but will defer to a rigger who should know a lot better than I.

6 weeks of no boat ... that won't be fun but there are house chores that will fill the weekends.


-Sven
 

stillwater

Member II
Bulkhead strength

Sven,
I would be nervous about the anchor locker bulkhead strength without a mechanical connection to the hull. A surveyor with a lot of experience in construction and repairs would be a person to consult and advise. The 1/2 plywood used on 70's vintage Ericson for the bulkheads was of good quality and well tabbed in the anchor locker but with 2 doors right underneath the attachment point I'd want an insurable installation rather than a rigger's best guess. In conditions where you would be using a storm sail I would not care to be wondering if the deck fitting or deck was going to seperate.

If a storm jib is your only concern check out ATN Gale sail. They can also retro fit old hank on storm sails.

Regards,
Dal

E39 "Stillwater"
 

Capt.Grant Dial

Junior Member
E-29 cutter rig?

I've been wondering about the E29 cutter rig. I am planning to replace the rigging in the next year or so as well as modify the encapsulated chainplates. What I'd like to know is: are there any existing E29 cutter rigs about? What are peoples experience w/ them, and are there any comments. I have seen one picture of a cutter rig E-29 in a brochure, but not anywhere else. :rolleyes:
 
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