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Reefing order

Gary G

Member II
Greetings everyone,

I was reading a thread on reefing over at sailnet and that caused me to think about the order in which we reef our sails as the wind builds. I have an E28+ which is a fractional rig. We do mainly coastal cruising and just don't go out if it's blowin' the dog off the chain. As such I've never had to do more than reef the main to the first reef point and if it gets worse roll up some of the jib to keep heeling and weather helm in line. Now I'm not sure what I would do if that was not enough - probably take in a second reef on the main followed by taking in more jib. What is the "correct" order to reef as the wind builds on a rig like mine? Thanks for your thoughts on this.
 

newpbs

Member III
Good Question

I like this question. I'm anxious to begin my second season with my 1988 32-200. I know from sailing my dad's 1969 Irwin that the order in which the sails are reefed can make a big difference. On the Irwin, you want to reef the main first. Reefing the head sail first unbalances the boat and makes steering difficult. She loved to sail at a 17 degree angle or so and would settle into a nice groove when reefed properly. My Ericson is rather tender, she likes to stay upright. The rigging is completely different and much taller. I expect to spend some time figuring out the best way to reef this summer. It would be interesting to hear from others regarding their reefing experience.

What do you know? How do you approach reefing?

Paul
 

Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
On our E30+, which is similar to the E28+, we furl our 135% headsail slightly first so that it is similar to about a 115%, then put a single reef in the mainsail. If that's not enough, we put a second reef in the mainsail and then if still needed, furl the headsail to about 90%.
That works well to keep our boat sailing well and balanced, and enjoying the winds without feeling out of control.
I'll be interested in what others do.
Frank
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
Frank is right

For the 30 and 28's this makes good sense. Past the second reef, just drop the mainsail and use a small jib. Only in the rarest situation of very high wind, and the need to go dead upwind would you need to consider a 3rd reef or trysail sized main, but as long as you are not needing maximum upwind performance you are fine with a headsail only once you get past 2 reefs.

For the masthead boats, roll or reduce ther headsail as you first reduction, then 1 reef, then a smaller jib, then second reef. Past this, again, I would likely drop the main and proceed under small jib-but at this point a rolled up 135 or bigger will not be very good. You will need a 100% or smaller sail, and this may be OK partially furled, but if you in the 35 knots or above area, you should be using a specifically built heavy air jib...

That's how I roll, anyway!

Cheers.

S:egrin:
 

EGregerson

Member III
reefing

reefing order is great stuff; i never thot much about it. If it gets bad, I reef the main; worse, then 2nd reef ; then the genoa; or maybe the genoa sooner based on a seat of the pants feeling. but this makes sense to reef the genoa 1st. And it's easier. So I thot... This is really an issue of balance. Do you want to maintain an approximate % of canvas on both sails? ie reef the genoa 25%; then appx 25% of the main. If this makes sense, does it make sense to mark the genoa? eg Place marks on the foot that will indicate what portion of the sail is unfurled. these marks are pre-determined on the main; they are the reefing points. Maybe this all sounds too mechanical; maybe it should be more 'feel' than numbers. But it would be interesting to see quantified results of maintaining balance of effort between the 2 sails.
 

rwthomas1

Sustaining Partner
Regarding balance, I try to balance the reefing on my E38 to control weather helm. Since the foresail is huge on these boats, the Genoa gets wound in a to the first reef mark first in the process. The Haarstick Genoa has two reef marks already "installed", simple red and blue lines to let you know when to stop. After the genoa, then the main, then back to the genoa to the second mark and finally the second on the main. I've never had to get to the second main reef.

Reefing, at least on the E38, seems a bit dependent on wind angle as well. Going to weather, close hauled, the reefs go in much earlier than say just a bit off the wind, 70* and more. I find I can come off the wind, carry more sail, sail flatter and go a good bit faster doing so. I believe that is what the "racers" are referring to with VMG?

RT
 

mherrcat

Contributing Partner
Related reefing question

I was reading something last night about reefing and it mentioned tying the reefing ties under the sail and not under the boom. Is this correct? Makes sense to me. I have tied them under the boom, but then they become almost impossible to untie because the tension placed on them makes the knots very tight.
 

EGregerson

Member III
reefing genoa & naughti knots

RT;
The red and blue lines are essentially what i was thinking of; Do you know what % of total sail area they represent? I was playing with the numbers of my main last night; the 1st reef is 7' from the foot; the 2nd reef is 12' from the foot; when i calculated the sail area of these; the sail area of the 1st reef is 75% and the 2nd reef is 50% of the full sail area; how coincidental. I suspect your red and blue lines represent something similar. And that's what i'd like to do (maybe my genoa is already marked in some way; need to look at it closely).

Mherrcat: when i bot this boat i noticed the little loop knot on the lines; I just pulled the bitter end and it 'fell' right apart. I had always tied them in unusual knots and struggled to get them undone like you; but this method was ingenious. In the pics pretend the log is the sail and the rack is the boom; one end is looped and the other bitter. Bitter end thru the loop; then tucked thru like tying your shoes; I've never had one come loose under sail; and at the end of the day; a tug on the bitter end and it comes right loose. Next time I'll try to photo it on an actual sail.
 

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rwthomas1

Sustaining Partner
EGregerson,
I have no idea what percentage of sail each reef mark represents. I would guess something approximating your figures. The shape of the genoa is crap at the second reef even with a foam luff. The price you pay for RF convenience.

mherrcat,
I was told to never tie the lines around the boom! Those points are not designed to be loaded and will damage the sail. Tie through the foot of the sail, its only to keep things looking neat. I never bother.

RT
 

CaptDan

Member III
I was reading something last night about reefing and it mentioned tying the reefing ties under the sail and not under the boom. Is this correct? Makes sense to me. I have tied them under the boom, but then they become almost impossible to untie because the tension placed on them makes the knots very tight.

That's definately the right way to do it. The reason is, if you tie the reefed sail bunt to the boom, you risk stretching or damaging the sail. The reefing line is intended to take up the foot tension; the ties are only to keep things tidy and prevent the reefed sail cloth from billowing in the breeze.

Capt Dan G>E35II "Kunu"
 

CaptDan

Member III
Greetings everyone,

I'm not sure what I would do if that was not enough - probably take in a second reef on the main followed by taking in more jib. What is the "correct" order to reef as the wind builds on a rig like mine? Thanks for your thoughts on this.

That all looks 'correct' to me.

Call me cautious (or worse), but fractionals are a different animal than masthead rigs. A fractional's forestay (I follow the late Gary Mull's terminology here) bears against the mast's lower part while the backstay pulls aft from the mast's top. This is a symbiotic tension that can't be ignored when you're reefing this type of boat.

Personally, I wouldn't sail a reefed fractional without SOME portion of the main, or - if so equipped - taking up a bit on the hydraulic backstay. Otherwise, an asymetrical load is created.

A masthead sloop, featuring a headstay/backstay bearing triatically against the same part of the mast top CAN be sailed with jib only without the same concerns.

Just my two cents. YMMV.

Capt Dan G>E35II "Kunu"
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
That all looks 'correct' to me.

Call me cautious (or worse), but fractionals are a different animal than masthead rigs. A fractional's forestay (I follow the late Gary Mull's terminology here) bears against the mast's lower part while the backstay pulls aft from the mast's top. This is a symbiotic tension that can't be ignored when you're reefing this type of boat.

Personally, I wouldn't sail a reefed fractional without SOME portion of the main, or - if so equipped - taking up a bit on the hydraulic backstay. Otherwise, an asymetrical load is created.

A masthead sloop, featuring a headstay/backstay bearing triatically against the same part of the mast top CAN be sailed with jib only without the same concerns.

Capt Dan G>E35II "Kunu"

I am voting with Dan. I saw a fractional rig Ranger 20 lose a rig once at a Nationals up in Bellingham when they were out in 20+ knots of wind with only a genoa up. Pulled the spar forward and bent it.... Not racing at the time - just out messing around before the start. :rolleyes:
That particular design had no runners, and shrouds were at 90 degrees. Class tuning guides said to always have some mainsail up in heavy air, and for good reason. Our next boat was fractional, but with swept spreaders to support the forestay (like a J-24). If a boat has double lowers they are usually fine, also.

Since one of the main reasons to reef, besides the obvious one of reducing area, is to lower the CE for the sail plan, reefing the main first on a fractional rig does this quickly. And that reduces heeling. Next I would reduce the foresail area to balance the helm better.

Loren
 

Carlos

Carlos
reefing a 30+ (fractional)

My fractional rig 30+ has a 130% genoa with RF. In a 20 knot breeze, the weather helm becomes unmanageable. I've played around with reefing the main and rolling in the genoa at different amounts. I've noticed that reefing the genoa, before the main, did not help. All it does is slow the boat down, the weather helm is still unmanageable, and the heel remains the same, about 30 degrees or more.

I do have a Gennaker and at a 17 knot breeze across the beam, weather helm becomes unmanageable. I then drop the chute and unroll the 130% genoa.

My Ericson is quite tender. At the slightest breeze she will heel 15 degrees. In anything greater then 10 knots she will heel 30 degrees. I then have to let out more of the main sheet to keep some of the pressure off the rudder. If I'm not racing I like to reef the main when the wind begins to blow at 15 knots. I don't like to sail at a 30 degree heel, it is too uncomfortable.
 

Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
Managing the E30+ with reefing

I also have an E30+, and though a bit tender, I don't find that she heels as much as you have reported. I sail with a 135 degree genoa, and will furl it a bit to about 110 when the wind hits 15 knots. At 18 knots I'll put in the first reef and furl the genoa to about 100. At 22 knots I'll put in the second reef. Before I furl or reef, I'll harden the outhaul, boom vang, backstay, luff tension and lower the traveller a bit to leeward, all of which help to keep her stable.

If your sails are old and blown out, that will increase heeling, but otherwise, with the steps above, the E30+ sails well in winds to 30 knots, without heeling as readily as what you have reported.

Frank
 

CaptDan

Member III
I've noticed that reefing the genoa, before the main, did not help. All it does is slow the boat down, the weather helm is still unmanageable, and the heel remains the same, about 30 degrees or more.

Since the mains'l is the principal driving force on a fractional, its area needs to be reduced first to regain helm balance and control in heavier air. In other words, the main is the first 'gear' you downshift before messing with the jib. The opposite is true with 70s era mast head rigs, where the large foretriangle provides the greater power drive.

If you're sailing with a flat cut genoa in higher wind speeds, you might try taking in 2 reefs in the main, leaving the head sail unfurled. If that doesn't do it, rolling the genoa up a notch might restore helm and optimum heel.

But as has already been mentioned, blown out or untrimmed sails change things dramatically - particularly in the case of the mains'l. That leaves the final option: douse jib, reef main - fire up Iron Genny.:rolleyes:

Capt Dan G>E35II "Kunu"
 

Carlos

Carlos
Yes, I agree, reefing comes after trimming of the sails to provide the best sail shape and pushing the CE on the main forward towards the mast to reduce weatherhelm.

You guys are sharp. My main is old and getting tired. Even after trimming the luff with the cunningham, outhaul, genoa to main, My main forms a "pocket" at the forward end of the second partial batten. I cannot shift the ce forward. So far my best solution appears to be a new main ~$2500.
 

ref_123

Member III
Time for new sails

Hi Carlos,

had the same frustration with heel angle. Was told repeatedly that it's me and my skills, and not the boat or sails. Changed sails. Wow! What a difference! So, go for it. You'll be an instant "better sailor" and sailing will be a joy again, not a stress.

And to loop it back to reefing - with new sails and diminished heeling and weather helm, there is no need to reef that early.

Regards,
Stan
 

CaptDan

Member III
My main is old and getting tired. Even after trimming the luff with the cunningham, outhaul, genoa to main, My main forms a "pocket" at the forward end of the second partial batten. I cannot shift the ce forward. So far my best solution appears to be a new main ~$2500.

Though not always the best approach, you might take the sail to a loft to see if it can be recut/refreshed. Also, lofts sometimes have deals on new sails that were either never paid for or didn't work out for a client's boat.

Then - there's good ol' Minney's; perhaps there's a preowned, but still viable sail that would fit (or could be cut to) that wouldn't break the bank.

That said, nothing beats a brand new sail specially built for you and your ride.:rolleyes:

Capt Dan G>E35II "Kunu"
 

EGregerson

Member III
easter sunday..

the forecast was 15 - 20 knots; gusts to 25. so not wanting to lose my chocolate bunny breakfast over the transom i put in the 2nd reef to start and had maybe 1/2 the 135 genoa out. I was amazed. that boat was making 6.5 knots with surges to over 7; I've never been that fast in this boat; and it was heeled over about 1/2 what it would usually be. Very manageable, not threatening but exciting/thrilling. With the old (22 years) baggy sail reefed like that; there was hardly any bag in it. I've since bot a 'new' used main; They said that it's about 10 years old; not perfect but nice and it's fully battened with a shelf foot; a north that came off a E34 and has the logo. For $600.
 

SASSY

Member II
Reefing

If it starts to blow or gust over 20 to 22 knots I will put in the first reef on the main sail. If it begins to blow above 25 I will put in the second reef on the main. I do this because reefing a roller furling is much easyer than reefing the main especialy when the wind picks up. The boat also points better the more Jib I have out. With this in mind I can use the furler for the finer adjustments to lighten weather helm without loosing the ability to point.
Andy
 
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