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34now

Junior Member
We own a 1988 34. We have substantial wheel pull to port, mostly while motoring, but slight while glide/sailing. Boat is out of the water now, and I have noticed that the aft end of the prop shaft is about 3/4" to starboard of center/line of keel and small rudder skeg. The bronze skeg that supports the prop shaft appears pretty straight and solid. I note the manual says you have to drop the ruddre to pull the shaft, so wonder why it is not in center. It appears connected to our whell pull.

Does this shaft alignment sound odd or normal to other similar vintage 34 owners??

photos and more detail at bottom of this older page:
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?t=4423
thanks much, Jim
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
Rudder Pull

I PM'd you about the engine installation, but I was curious if the pull while sailing is always the same direction?

This would mean relative weather helm on one board, and lee helm (or much less helm) on the other-is this the case?

Over...?:)

S
 

34now

Junior Member
answer to Q on rudder/wheel pull

Thanks again Seth,
Nothing like a good puzzle.....It pulls a lot to port under power and around 10-20% as much to port while gliding (just out of gear) or sailing. the faster the boat goes the more pull under all scenarios. So on the weather helm Q, I have compared upwind on both tacks with matching sail trim (and yes rig is in the middle of the boat and straight) several different days. It will always pull a bit to port--more weather helm on port and less on stbd tack.

Now since the rudder is asymmetric also--port side fatter (more draft), all other things equal (neutral) that would want to make the boat turn which way?
Jim, E34
 

sailingdeacon

Member III
Finally somebody with the same problem I have had on my 1987 E34. A very, very long thread about pulling to port is at http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?t=5537&highlight=slipstream The problems was not noticed until I installed a highly efficient prop and run at 6 kts or faster when it becomes quite bothersome. I never notice it under sail... but I NOW know that it will glide slightly to port with the rudder admidship. I still have not solved the problem butI never gave much thought to a asymmetrical rudder. I decided to live with it and have not hauled out since.

But it is curious that the issue applied to another late 80s E34. One curious point is that my boat always listed slightly to starboard even with two batteries on the port side...By keeping the most water on the port tank water - use the starboard tank first. I suspect there may be a slight imperfection in the symmetry of the hull, which could cause the problem but oddly ONLY under high speed power.
 

34now

Junior Member
More on the wheel pull to port

Thanks for your interest Sailing Deacon. I looked at eh old thread you sent. We have more than 2 issues in common: pull to port, adding a more powerful prop (Max Prop is on the way to our boat now), bit of a list to starboard, and maybe more. I have concluded that the prop shaft and prop off to starboard AND the asymmetric rudder (fatter on port side) have been additive to cause the wheel pull. I understand that was a real issue on the E32s also.

There is one of 2 old threads on E34s listing to starboard also, one water tank, holding tank, water heater tank...all to stbd. we try to load and use water to lighten stbd side and have a bit of lead to port, but it is still not quite even. I dno think it is enough to casue the wheel pull tho. (it is our rudder that is pulling--it is totally sep[erate from the steering system BTW.)

I am v curious if other E34 owners report a prop offset to Starboard (ours is 3/4" off), or the wheel pull. One owner that I recently met here in WA (1989 E34) says they have pretty much no wheel pull underway. We are adding the max prop 3 blade to both increase smoothness/decrease vibration and noise (hopefully), get more power, and I hoped maybe reduce the pull--maybe not the latter I now here. Some say prop further aft close to rudder is good to reduce prop wash effects on rudder, some say its worse...

If we are no better off after this, the (now dripping) rudder may be the next target some years down the road, but they are $2k new from Foss in Newport Cal. Or when it is time to repower to reexamine the prop shaft alighment, or to jsut live with it--a fat bungy from the lower right part of the wheel to a line far to port (by the jevvy sheet cleat) does pretty good as a dumb auto pilot while motoring in calm-moderate conditions.:)

any thoughts are always appreciated, Jim
 

sailingdeacon

Member III
My experience was that I never really notice much pulling with a Martec feathering prop... possibly because I usually did not rev up often because the prop needed rebalancing. WIth a Slipstream 2 blade (unique) new prop that REALLY pushes the boat I noticed it immediately. At the time no one suggested that it might be a design problem. So I never really checked the shaft alignment. I will next haulout.

I can now easily power the boat at near 7 knots but pulls strongly to port - so much so that I often put my foot on a spoke at about 4 oclock and let the weight assist. SInce my last post on the other thread, I found I was being misled since the wheel position was falsely pointing straight ahead. After I aligned the wheel, I now see that in fact while coasting I do slightly turn to port, indicating a rudder/keel/hull shape problem. Yet at 6+ knots under sail I dont notice the pull. Odd. So that would indicate both a shaft alignment issue plus something with either the keel/rudder/hull. I expect the keel as is with your situation.

One point I never made was that I cut off 4" of the rudder many years ago due to groundings, but I did not notice any change in steering or anything else.

and BTW my autohelm has no problem with the pull... thankfully.

Let me know how your 3 blade prop goes. My guess (sadly) is that the problem will remain.

What is your production number. mine is 241. Perhaps something was amiss for awhile???
 

kevin81

Member II
My 1989 E34 pulls noticeably to port at 1300 rpm and higher. At 1800 and higher we don't let go of the wheel or we'll be making "donuts" in the water!

Yes mine also list to starboard. I first thought it might be caused by the AC compressor mounted in the starboard locker. After hearing about others without AC having the same problem I realized it's one the "unique" features of this model. I tried keeping the port water tank full and storing all can goods and drinks in one of the port under-seat storage areas. It still lists slightly to port.

Kevin
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Note that a list will present an asymetric bottom profile and cause a tendency to turn -- whether under sail or power.
Lots of sail boats, from lots of different builders, have some list when delivered or as later configured.
One way to trouble-shoot your helm pull is to absolutely balance your boat, for list prevention -- i.e. dead level. Then go out and motor it. If you have to store all the beer kegs and wine casks on one side to perform this experiment, so be it! :rolleyes: Moveable ballast is very important so do not drink it until the experiment is over.

As mentioned in a past "listing" thread here, our particular design has a noticeable port list. We store the Zodiac and other relatively heavy items on the starboard side and we are level when we go cruising. ;) About the only thing that exacerbates the problem is filling our port side #2 water tank -- so we always draw from that tank first when cruising.

Regards,
Loren
:egrin:
 

sailingdeacon

Member III
It would be extremely helpful if, at the next haulout, all the E34 members would compare their shaft alignment with the E34 pictured in http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?t=4423

Of all the checks I made I never did eyeball it to that degree, but it seems to me that something unusual in steering would occur with a shaft that much off center.

Loren, I certainly agree with your thoughts about balancing the list, but I'm not at all sure that preventing the list would address the underlying reason as to why it list and its effects. My boat now is balanced perfectly but still favors port while coasting, and severely turns left at 5 knts or more under power (only). It could be that a slight hull imperfection is contributing to a degree also. I once had a discarded dinghy that when pulled at speed would veer to the side dramatically. I concluded it was hull shape.

I think the pulling to port problem with the E34 may be more typical than earlier thought. It would be good to know how many E34s (providing a hull production number) have the offset shaft even though there was no apparent reason for it, with the engine mounted in the centerline.

If the prop is pushing more water over the starboard side of the rudder perhaps that causes more lift of the starboard side, causing the boat to turn to port, with the hull shape agrivating the problem. WHile sailing perhaps only the hull shape is causing a slight pull to port. Add to this any contributing factors of prop design and boat speed, and you have the problem

Another thought: could it have been that the offset shaft was done to attempt to offset the known list??? if so perhaps it only aggrivated the problem.

For certain, my prop supplier, Slipstream, never could come up with good answer although they tried mightily.. They continued to feel that something about the boat was the underlying problem. And I now agree. Their prop is a super efficient folding design from down under.


And... 34Now, I would go slow on a new rudder... I just dont think it is the main problem.
 
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sailingdeacon

Member III
My 1989 E34 pulls noticeably to port at 1300 rpm and higher. At 1800 and higher we don't let go of the wheel or we'll be making "donuts" in the water!

Yes mine also list to starboard. I first thought it might be caused by the AC compressor mounted in the starboard locker. After hearing about others without AC having the same problem I realized it's one the "unique" features of this model. I tried keeping the port water tank full and storing all can goods and drinks in one of the port under-seat storage areas. It still lists slightly to port.

Kevin

Kevin, I have two batteries under the port sink area, plus a big battery under the port aft bunk(slightly off centerline), and with just some water extra in the port tank the boat does not list.
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
The C&C's from that era often had the shaft angled over 5 degrees to port -- I was always told that this compensated for prop torque when motoring ahead. I do not know how well that worked, but it did make it easier to change props.
The down side was that backing up was harder.

Since we are talking about mid to late 80's Ericsons... if your boat still has the original ferro-resonate battery charger in it, replace it with a modern multi-stage solid state one. We took out that heavy (about 40#) monster in the mid 90's and put in a Statpower 20. I changed the location of the new charger to the "light" side of the boat, too! Those old chargers (aka "heaters" or "hummers") would boil your batteries dry if you did not add more distilled water very frequently, too.:p

Has anyone ever done a quick profile of midsection of the late model E-34?
This would take a couple of people, chalk, a saber saw, and some door skins. A hot glue gun would help, also. It seems like... :nerd:

Since that was one of the three models that PSC put into production (the "PSC Ericson 350") it would be interesting to find out if they knew of any problem with the hull tooling. I would really doubt that they changed the hull tooling at all for their short model run.

Good luck,
Loren
 

sailingdeacon

Member III
Could be complicated more since the E34 and E 35-III were made at the same time at least in 1987. Supposedly the same boat but I have been told (somewhere on this web site I think) that one can see a difference when side by side. I wonder if there were two molds or were they in fact the same - and therefore the PS 35 used one of the two?
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
PSC put only three E boats into their lineup.
All were the aft cabin layout Ericson models then current.
AFAIK, the E-32-200 became the PSC E-333, the E-34 became the PSC E-350, and the E-38-200 became the PSC E-380.

LB
 
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Tom Metzger

Sustaining Partner
The E-34 and the E-35-3 have different sterns. They came from different molds.

The aft cabin wouldn't fit in the 35 hull. Looking at pictures of the two will show the differences.

My son has a PSC "32" which is called an E-333. The major difference between the Ericsons and the later PSC boats is the scooped transoms.

AFAIK, my E-34 prop shaft is right on the center line, but I will take look when I go next week.
 

Shadowfax

Member III
I have seen the 34 and the 35 side by side out of the water and they are definitely different boats. It has been awhile since I looked, but I believe the 34 is 2 inches longer at the waterline then the 35.

My 34 pulls when under power and I never thought more of it then the torque caused by the direction the prop spun, but what do I know.

I also think my shaft is in line with the rudder, but I'll check it out this weekend as the boat is still on the hard.
 

Chris A.

Member III
For what it's worth, I checked out my alignment as well as a friend's 1987 E34 and the shaft seems on the midline. I admit it's difficult to tell with just my eyeballs about fractions of an inch, since the rudder blocks your view when you're sighting from behind the transom and slight shifts in viewing angle can make things appear to move around quite a bit. I'll try to take some photos and see if that helps.

I do pull to port under power- no question about that. I attribute that to prop forces per Shadowfax's comment. To cite another example of designed shaft offset, there are lots of Sabre 34s in the neighborhood, with a strongly side-angled propshaft. Don't know how that affects the helm on those boats...
 
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sailingdeacon

Member III
To keep this mysterious E34 shaft alignment topic going.... Take a gander at these photos of my 1987 E34, #241. IMHO the shaft is not centered. It trails to port which could explain why my boat pulls to port under strong power with a highly efficient folding prop. Completely different from the other E34 at http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?t=4423 posted by 34Now. WIth an eyeball look from the stern one would think the shaft was centered. Please also review the 4th jpeg attached. The last two photos were made from the side to center the prop ends on the rudder edge. Note the exagerated difference. Key is that the strut position - likely not centered with the rudder - is the likely reason for the offset. So did the workers get a bit sloppy in the strut installation?

My original post regarding this issue was about the prop itself at http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?t=5537
 

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Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Picture 2 looks like the shaft is tighter against one side of the alley. So, maybe the strut was indeed installed a degree off of center.
There is so little angle, however, that I would question whether this would make any difference in prop pull (over a centered prop).
Of course I am just armchair quarterbacking from a distance....

Loren
 

sailingdeacon

Member III
Loren, yes I tend to agree with your comment, but then again we have yet to figure out why more than one of these boats pulls to port. Remember that I have no pull to port under sail, only the very slightest pull to port while coasting, but significant pull when under power at 6+ knots. Oddly one other boat in this discussion had the shaft significantly to starboard and still pulled to port as I recall.

At any rate I thought it would be helpful to see that apparently the shaft (or strut?) installation was not always precise. Also, regardless of the pull this boat is a keeper! I love it.
 

Tom Metzger

Sustaining Partner
When the thread started I tried to take pics of my E-34 prop shaft, but found that I could make it look any way I wanted by changing my position slightly. I don't think it is off center at all, certainly not enough to be intentional.
 
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