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Removing the manual bilge pump?

rwthomas1

Sustaining Partner
I hate to admit it but the bilge pump system in my E38 is just about worthless. A single Rule 500 run through plenty of hose all the way back to the transom. It works but its not going to keep up with any real problem. As most of you will know the TAFG grid setup in these boats limits the size and placement of pumps and particularly hose and hose runs. The next project is to replace the centrifugal pump with a diaphragm type mounted inline in the engine room. Even one good diaphragm pump is still not enough so I had an idea..... What about simply removing the manual pump entirely and using that large discharge hose run for a truly monster backup centrifugal? I would plan on keeping the manual setup mounted on a board, etc. for a backup backup.

I have read enough opinions (surveyors) on the futility of the manual pump. Claims that these pumps do not move enough water, are physically demanding to use, dedicate a crewmember to pumping and not helping to deal with the problem, etc. So what are the thoughts on this here?

Lastly I do have an emergency setup that allows the engine raw water intake to draw from a deployable hose/strum box that can be dropped in the bilge.

Thanks, RT
 

gareth harris

Sustaining Member
After Hurricane Ivan, my battery box was flooded. A very large bucket was the best bailing system for the first couple of hundred gallons, the manual pump once I started getting down to the cabin sole.

That is not quite the same situation as a leak underway, but Murphy may ensure that you start taking on water at the same time as an electrical failure.

I used to flush out my engine with fresh water, and the volume it took would not be all that much in terms of emergency bailing, although in that situation every little bit could help.

Gareth
Freyja E35 #241 1972
 

Captron

Member III
Pumps

I've been thinking exactly the same thing but I haven't found a suitable pump yet. I was thinking of just using a large Rule automatic pump down in the bilge but I haven't figured out if there's room. You not only need room for the pump but room to connect the hose.

I was thinking about putting a float switch under the engine. If water got that high it would kick in the big boy.

I think it's a good idea. I'm with you, that hand pump is all but useless. A bucket would work just as well.
:thinker:
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
One caution about the Rule centrifugal pumps - they *must* be primed and stay primed. I tried a small one in our bilge and it would "air lock" just from the air in sags/pockets in the discharge line. I went back to the Par/Jabsco diaphram pump because it is a positive displacement device.

Sorry to digress, since this thread is about needing high enough pump volume to cope with significant flooding or at least slow down the ingress of water while you locate and seal off the inflow.

As to the comments about the manual Gusher mounted by the helm on the late model Ericsons/Olsons, I admit to being puzzled. While I have not had to operate mine in an emergency, I observe that it moves great bunches of bilge water when tested. Of course this would depend on the vitality of the person manning (person-ing?) the handle! Fear of death would motivate any of us to pump a heck of a lot of water this way, is my surmise. :rolleyes:

Note that the ORC has long required a manual pump that can be used while steering, so that others on the crew can work at leak stopping and damage control. I always thought that Ericson was to be admired for putting this pricy pump in place when the cheap production sailboats had nothing.

;) Gareth's comment reminds me of the old saying that "the best bilge pump in the world is a frightened man with a bucket!"

Sidebar: I wonder how many Ericsons over 20 years of age need to have their original bilge hose runs replaced due to cracks in the old (and now brittle) vinyl? Any little air leaks in those ancient ribbed hoses would sharply reduce pump suction... :p

Good thread, and thanks for the thoughtful commentary.

Loren
 

Rocinante33

Contributing Partner
A significant electrical problem would mean you would be without any working bilge pump, except the bucket. The old Whale gusher can move a lot of water. I would keep it, though a rebuild might be in order, along with the hose upgrade. YMMV
 

Steve

Member III
grid system limits

I've had concern with the water volume trapped by the grid system is limited by the 1" holes between the grids. In testing I've noticed you can suck down a grid section with the adjoining grids draining slowly into the now empty space. These communication holes through the grids should be larger, especially if you put a big volume pump in.

However this is a non-issue if the water is over the sole, but a potential issue with a centrifucal pump when the water is below top of grid due to loss of prime when it sucks a section dry before the rest can empty into it.

... Of course the best solution of many would be to stop or limit the water from coming in by getting a rain coat or other type of material over the leak outside the boat. A classic toilet plunger would be a good bet under the boat over a seacock opening... etc..

(crappy weather today... so it's laptop time!)
 

Cory B

Sustaining Member
We put a Rule 3700 in our bilge as our emergency pump, both it and its switch are elevated. As pointed out above, the small-ish limber holes between the sections of the bilge causes problems with using such a large pump as the primary - it sucks way faster than the bilge compartment will fill in normal circumstances. We currently use a centrifigual 500gph as our primary, but I am planning on switching to a small remotely mounted diaphragm style to suck out of more of the water.

Regardless of the real-life practicallity of the manual pumps, I would not get rid of them... If you ever got your boat surveyed for sale or insurance, I'd imagine that would be a red flag.
 
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gareth harris

Sustaining Member
Gareth's comment reminds me of the old saying that "the best bilge pump in the world is a frightened man with a bucket!"

Loren

I am kind of wondering what image of me has formed in your mind Loren...

It would be an interesting experiment to put a 5 gallon bucket under the outflow of the Whale pump and measure how long it took to fill it. They are rated pretty highly on paper, but I wonder how it compares to an electrical pump in reality.

Gareth
Freyja E35 #241 1972
 

rwthomas1

Sustaining Partner
Here is what I would like to know, CoryBolton how in the heck did you fit a Rule 3700 and the 1 1/2" hose into a TAFG boat??? I would have to get really happy with a hole saw and tear most of my boat apart to get one of those in WITHOUT using the current manual pump hose runs..... The other idea is to simply reroute the pickup of the manual pump to under the galley sink or engine. That way I could use the original hose run to the bilge area for a large Rule and still retain the manual for disaster/insurance/surveyor reasons. That may be the best solution. Lots of good thoughts here! RT
 

Cory B

Sustaining Member
Ha! You'll have to wait for photographic proof, but on the 35 at least, theres room in the "compartment" just aft of the mast step spreader plate for the big centrifugul.

No power tools required.

However, I did "Y" off the manual 1.5" pump hose, and added a checkvalve to the manual pump side (so the 3700 just doesn't just move water from one compartment to another). The whale gushers will let water flow through them, although I'm sure it adds a little resistance.

It also does make it impractical to use the manual and the "big" electric at the same time, but I really consider the manual an emergency backup. The day-to-day shower and regular bilge pumps run in separate smaller hoses.

In at the dock testing both systems work fine individually... and the 3700 can really move a lot of water.

Its not a perfect setup, but I think its a good improvement.
 
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Glyn Judson

Moderator
Moderator
Moving stuff with a big Whale gusher 10.

Guys, I have to tell you that if you haven't pumped a whale Gusher 10 for any length of time, you really need to do so. I had occasion on Friday to do just that. You see, we have been composting our two Golden Retriever's leavings in a device called a Doggy Dooley http://www.doggiedooley.com/ until it started backing up and not doing its thing. Apparently the maker says Marilyn didn't have the hole dug deep enough, so on and so on........ Anyway the bottom line was that I elected myself to evacuate the contents that were full to the brim and I mean FULL to the brim!! The only thing that made any sense to use was a spare Whale Gusher 10 and seven feet of hose I had in the garage. I screwed it to the end of a board, attached the now cut hoses and got to work. With the longer end of the hose in the composter and the shorter one in a 10 quart bucket (think car washing bucket and you've got it) and one knee on the board, I began the unpleasant task of pumping the bucket full, walking it to a 4" clean out in the back yard garden and repeating the whole thing all over again waaay too many times. To fully clean the chamber out, I first had to pump the bulk of it out in three buckets' full. In order to get it totally clean, I ended up toting 21 buckets to the clean out by filling it with fresh water and pumping it out over and over again. The point here is that even with "rests" in between bucket loads, by the time the 21st bucket went down the drain, I was drained too and that couldn't have been more than 30 minutes tops. I can't imagine what it would be like to have to rely upon that Whale Gusher 10 to keep the boat afloat. And you know that 30 minutes is just the beginning in a serious flooding. Mind you, I'm not even talking about a large volume entering the boat, just the 2 1/2 gallons that I pumped into my bucket in 20 to 30 seconds per. So I guess the lesson here is to use a large volume electric pump for the big stuff and make sure your batteries are up high. All this assumes that the engine doesn't get swamped because without it running at the same time, in short order the batteries will give up the ghost. Food for thought, way more thought, Glyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey, CA
 

Skip Jim

Member II
Wow, I think I would rather pump for 8 hours on a boat than pump what you pumped for 30 minutes. You should have gone sailing instead.

Jim
 

Emerald

Moderator
I can't imagine what it would be like to have to rely upon that Whale Gusher 10 to keep the boat afloat. And you know that 30 minutes is just the beginning in a serious flooding. Mind you, I'm not even talking about a large volume entering the boat, just the 2 1/2 gallons that I pumped into my bucket in 20 to 30 seconds per. So I guess the lesson here is to use a large volume electric pump for the big stuff and make sure your batteries are up high. All this assumes that the engine doesn't get swamped because without it running at the same time, in short order the batteries will give up the ghost. Food for thought, way more thought, Glyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey, CA


Groco has a really neat solution for this, and you can make a variant on your own. They have a seacock that is meant to be used on the water intake for the engine. This special seacock has an emergency port on it so you close the valve to the seawater, open the emergency port, and attach a line that goes into the bilge. You've now turned your engine into your bilge pump. This could be duplicated very easily by adding a T and a ball valve on the intake seacock. Been on my mind as something to do in my spare time :rolleyes:
 

bwb

E/30+ Berkeley, CA
Engine-driven bilge pump

For moving some serious amount of water, here's an emergency bilge pump that attaches directly to the prop shaft. It operates continuously whenever the engine is running, acting as a high-volume blower when there's no water to move.
 

Rocinante33

Contributing Partner
For moving some serious amount of water, here's an emergency bilge pump that attaches directly to the prop shaft. It operates continuously whenever the engine is running, acting as a high-volume blower when there's no water to move.

Interesting idea, but it means you have to be moving through the water (or tied securely to the dock) to run the pump.
 
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