New Holding Tank, Piping & Valves

I am about to replace the 20-year-old hoses. They are starting to permeate, and some even have checking in the outer surface layer...

Our '88 model has the then-standard Ericson "full Monty" waste management system that allows direct overboard via Y-valve, or, into a 15 gallon (Ronco Plastics model B-175) holding tank, and then the additional choice of shoreside pumpout via deck fitting OR pumping overboard thru the head discharge thruhull valve.

I find that, unlike some of the diagrams in the catalogs, our holding tank has two (2) 1 1/2" threaded exits at the bottom. One for the deck pumpout and one going back forward to the head compartment to the Whale manual pumpout there.

Anyone else here find this double-exit strategy in their holding tank?
Next question: Why ... or why not?

Most of the folks that I have spoken with echo the advice in some catalog illustrations to just have a Tee fitting in the holding tank exit hose, with the hose off of the Tee going up to the deck pumpout fitting.

Thanks for any comments and advice.


Loren

Holding tank fittings.

Loren, Mine is as you state it should be, one discharge hose fitting without a second one. The T-fitting is the simplest method and makes it less complicated for others to manage without having to figure out anything else but how to start pumping (overboard or on deck). By the way, I have satisfied the USCG requirement that the seacock be disabled or locked by simply tying a tether to the handle secured at the other end around the seacock body and removing the nut holding it on. With the seacock closed, the handle falls into the bilge and can be easily retrieved to open and then reclose the seacock when discharging overboard. Glyn

Ours too

Our 38 also had this same double exit strategy. I never thought much about it since here on the Great Lakes anything other than holding tanks is out of the question. But if I were offshore I would sure want to have the option of being able to pump directly overboard without having the waste first go through the tank, which is how it was set up from the factory. And I guess to do that would involve a Y valve from the head going either directly overboard or to the tank.

But as there is only one through hull for waste, what would you do then? Use it for direct discharge, or for emtpying the tank? Because being able to emtpy the tank yourself while offshore would would be convenient too. So what complicated system of valves would that take? Decisions, decisions....

My 36RH came with two ports. But to echo Steve's comments, here on Lake Michigan I didn't want any trouble to I just capped it off. I removed all other hosing and pumps for over the side discharge. These pumps and hoses had a terrific odor to them. To replace them would have added greatly to the cost of re-plumbing the head. 20 gallons seems small for a 34' boat. Have you considered increasing the size? Just curious - a 2 or 3 day trip with a crew of 5 would overflow that quick.

Holding Tank Plumbing

I have two discharges in my holding tank. Having two discharges eliminates one tee or y valve and three connections and maybe another valve.

One discharge goes directly to the deck pump out fitting.

The other tank discharge goes to a pump (Sealand waste pump 1 1/2" on both ends) and to a Y valve and then the thru-hull fitting.

The output from the head goes to a Y valve and then one side of the y valve goes to the holding tank input and the other joins the pump out y valve just before the thru-hull fitting (after passing through the vented loop). The Y valve handles are easily removed.

The Y valve that directs discharge into the tank or overboard is mounted behind the bulkhead behind the head with the handle poking through. The handle is all that shows. The other y valve is back inside the sink cabinet.

This system allows direct overboard discharge without going through the tank, allows for electric overboard tank pump out and dockside pump out.

It sounds complicated but it's really pretty simple. The installation work is made difficult by the lack of space under the cabinets but it can be done. Sorry I don't have drawings for the visual thinkers.

Dual Discharge

We have dual discharge hoses as well, but no Y-valve. One goes to the manual pump and then overboard, and the other to the pumpout fitting - no direct discharge from the head.

Incidentally, we were "boarded" by the USCG in Westport/GraysHarbor WA last summer (I think they get bored there and inspect just about everyone that goes into the harbor). We had the overboard seacock closed, but not locked or anything. He looked at it a bit and was trying to figure out how it was hooked up, so I just told him, and he had no problem with it. Perhaps other locales are stricter.

I don't quite get it....

Maybe I'm a "visual thinker" as referenced above, but the systems described above seem more complex than they need to be, in my opinion, but maybe I'm missing something. Extra hose, Y clamps, etc.--doesn't make sense to me.

On our boat, everything is flushed from the head/toilet directly through a
1 1/2" hose into the holding tank. From there I have two options--one 1 1/2" hose connects to a manual pump and then goes out the thru hull discharge when I'm in an area that permits it; one 1 1/2" hose goes from the holding tank to a deck pump out for when I'm in restricted waters.

I'm sure this is a relatively standard application, surveyor has written that it complies with regulations, and it seems more simple than what you folks are describing--everything into the holding tank, then either pump out through the thru hull or the deck pump out.

Can someone clarify why all this other stuff is better? (I can understand if someone is mainly offshore, so the direct head to thru hull makes sense there, but otherwise, why bother with two different types of systems?

Frank.

Ports and Capacity

jmcpeak said:

My 36RH came with two ports. But to echo Steve's comments, here on Lake Michigan I didn't want any trouble to I just capped it off. I removed all other hosing and pumps for over the side discharge. These pumps and hoses had a terrific odor to them. To replace them would have added greatly to the cost of re-plumbing the head. 20 gallons seems small for a 34' boat. Have you considered increasing the size? Just curious - a 2 or 3 day trip with a crew of 5 would overflow that quick.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the info, and, as to the tank size... we are measuring to see if a little larger tank can fit in the stock location. Moving the tank elsewhere is not much of an option, as there is little room "to spare" anywhere on a boat this size.
After looking through the Ronco and Kracor on-line catalogs, it does look like we can gain some tankage by going from the stock Ronco B-175 (15 gallons) to a Ronco B-200 (20 gallons). There is also an even easier fit if we go with a Kracor #2081 (18 gal.).

Sidebar: my initial post said that the stock tank is 20 gallons. I must have been thinking of the replacement sizes...
Too many printouts and too may Post It notes swirling around my desk!

Time to add a diagram, copied from the WWW and modified to suit...
I have only added a poorly-drawn freehand line at #3, to show the stock Y-Valve for head discharge over the side, which leads to a barbed coupler just near the thruhull (between #9 and #10).
At #10, they show a macerator pump, where we have a whale pump mounted inside the counter in the head compartment.
And, of course, at #8 we have no valve, but rather the two separate exits from the bottom side of the holding tank.

Thanks again, and keep those comments coming.

Best,
Loren

Hose & pump odor.

Jason and all, Start using Odorlos (available at West Marine and others) in your head system and the smell will begin to go away immediately. Within weeks, certainly less than a month all the odors will be completely gone. If you want to speed up the process, flush the system in the following manner: A. Make a 50/50 mix of muriatic acid and water, (2 quarts in a plastic bucket). B. Pour 1 qt. into a dry bowl, let it stand for 15 minutes and flush down. C. Repeat with a second quart as above. D. Flush the tank thoroughly* and add 1 oz. of Odorlos solution per 10 gallons of tank capacity to the tank through bowl. *Thoroughly means at least 2-3 complete fillings and refillings of the toilet, hoses and holding tank with fresh or salt water. Odorlos WILL NOT WORK if there is any other treatment chemical in the system. You do not have to replace hoses, tanks and pumps to rid your boat of head odor. Good luck, Glyn Judson E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey, CA

Odorlos

Another thumbs up for Odorlos.

However I've used it conjunction with the Hall/Raritan CP/KP products for very quick results. Both product families say don't mix with other products, but I figure what they are really saying is don't mix with a biocide (which most of the holding tank treatments tend to be). Odorlos provides the oxygen, and KP provides the "friendly" enzymes/bacteria to kickstart the process.

CoryBolton said:

Another thumbs up for Odorlos.

However I've used it conjunction with the Hall/Raritan CP/KP products for very quick results...

Click to expand...

I use Odorlos now, but with original 27 year old plumbing - it had to go. Along with the whale pump. 27 years of stink permeating that rubber - no way to get rid off the smell.

Hoses and broken pumps, oh my

I got parts of the hose run removed today. A hack saw was involved, several times...

That $300. (current shelf price) Whale Gusher 10 pump turned out to be unusable -- bellows is not connected with the shaft any more. Since we have never tried to empty the tank with it, it probably has been this way since we bought the boat in '94.
The exit-side check flap valve inside was pushed backwards into the chamber...
There were salt crystals inside and some other gross... "stuff."

I do have a spare (used) one of these pumps that I picked up at a swap meet "just in case."
It could serve as a replacement -- if I want to use a cast aluminum pump again.

I have been researching my original holding tank double-exit-fitting question and find that several tank suppliers provide tanks with one or two exits, no prejudice either way. I may stick with the factory design when we order up a new tank, whether same model or larger.

Anyhoo..... IF you have the 80's Ericson holding tank piping layout with multiple disposal options and this particular pump mounted on the face of the head compartment counter, you may want to be sure it is functional...

I am just glad we do not have to repair this while on our vacation!


Cheers,
Loren
(Who washed his hands with disinfectant, before taking a hot shower, before... touching this computer!)

Loren,

I recently replaced our manual holding tank pump also. I grappled with putting in a macerator pump, which would have been cheaper than a replacement Whale mk 10. That would've required adding wiring and another circuit at the opposite end of the boat from the 12v panel. So I decided on a cheaper, and hopefully better, solution. I got a manual Whale mk V pump (BP0510). It was $113 at Defender. It is made of nitrile and frp, so it should be more resistant to the corrosion that destroyed our old Gusher 10. I had to drill new holes in the bulkhead, and I still need to cover the old holes with a thin panel, but that is cosmetic. I used the old cosmetic, thru bulkhead (or thru deck) diaphram which was still OK (with squirts of armorall).

Here are links;

http://www.whalepumps.com/documents/brochure/whale_marine_book_2008_reducedsize2.pdf
(see p.35 of catalog)

http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|51|299222|84462|316440&id=152781

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wc...L=true&storeNum=11&subdeptNum=75&classNum=168

When I was getting our E38 ready to sell in the fall of 2004 I wanted to redo all the hoses to get rid of a bit of odor that sometimes would build up in the head. First thing I did was remove the manual pump, and found that although it didn't appear to have a leak, and although it had never been used (being on the no-discharge Great Lakes) there was a fair amount of sewage inside the pump and hose leading to the pump that had worked its way from the tank when the boat was thrashing about. The overboard discharge end had already been plugged by the dealer to comply with the regulations, so to remove it altogether I just cut the pump discharge hose a couple of feet above the tank and plugged it off.

Turns out that all of my head odor had been coming from that pump. As time was running short I never did replace the hose leading from the bowl to the tank, as it no longer seemed to need it - at least not enough to warrant the hassle of trying to route stiff new hose aft from the bowl to the tank (a REAL pain on the E38-200).

Moral of my story is that if you have one of these pumps, and any odor in the head, either check for a leak, or be sure that when you are done flushing you have only fresh water sitting in it, not waste. When I was done the only odor in the head was teak oil, which certainly helped selling the boat, since most used boats don't smell that sweet in the head.

E34

Loren,

Not sure that I posted my 'total replacement' story from last year. Here's the quick version:
Old tank had the one input up top and the two outputs on the bottom. [One of the fittlings had cracked]
I spoke to RONCO and had a new tank built (same model). Added 3" inspection port spin-welded in. I put the input on the fwd-facing side outboard. Short run from the head. I placed a single output (w/ dip tube/standpipe) on the aft inboard top corner. All hoses are Sealand Odorlos (the expensive stuff that tested so will with PS). I took the output to a Y valve mounted on the outboard side of the bulkhead and from there I go to the deck fitting or the [new] Whale pump in the head. Same setup otherwise. Looks pretty and is working very well. With hindsight, the only concern I woul dhave is that, when heeling very hard on a port tack w/ the tank full, I could conceivably put back pressure on the joker. Since the flapper is sealing that should not be an issue.

I can send pics if you want me to.

regards,

Y Valve Problem/ 1989 38-200

HI,

I purchased a 1989 38-200 this past December. The Y valve in the head , which maybe the original, is leaking. The Y valves that West Marine sell are too large. Does any one have names/sources of other makes that are available. I'm hoping to avoid having a mechanic change the entire plumbing system-just because I can't find the same size Y valve. We tried rebuilding the valve but that didn't work. I'd appreciate any imput.

FrankJ

Real Y Valve

Check out www.forespar.com. They make a REAL Marelon ThreeWay Ball Valve. The OLD Jabsco Y Valve is the Weirdest valve I have ever had the joy of taking apart. The valve uses a SQUARE O-ring thingy moving from port to port..... IMPOSSIBLE to seal leak-tight like a proper ball valve.
Stick with the Forspar Y Valve and you will have a Professional Waste System
with no leaks or flow through unwanted ports when you are not LOOKING !
I use (2) Y Valves in Series. (1) to direct waste overboard or to the tank. (1) to direct waste from the tank Pump to PumpOut or Direct Discharge.
Shields 148 PVC Sanitary Hose throughout intake and discharge.

Happy Waste Systems

More piping updates & trivia

Please take this message as a "heads up" when pondering the age and condition of the system on your 80's Ericson, many of which are now about 25 years old.

Now that 99% the parts are home, I find that the handle that lately had turned SO easily on the '88 Y-valve was no longer attached internally to the valve.

The tank, which I remembered being empty, needed to be pumped out. This became instantly apparent when hack sawing part of the hose end at the top entry. "Don't ask..."


Even after wiping down the reachable parts of the hull under the head countertop with bleach and water on rags, a tiny hint of odor remains -- courtesy of mishaps (??) remaining from the first owner, I guess

After tearing down and reassembling the replacement Gusher 10 I found a couple years ago at a swap meet for under $30, I find that it is essentially new. Yippee!
And, now I really can see that the pump body may be just about the only reuseable part from the old Gusher 10 removed from the head compartment...


Those right-angle plastic hose fittings on both of the Gushers on our boat (waste pumpout and cockpit manual bilge pumpout) are cataloged, but not very commonly. I would not want to bend or crack one. They appear only in a master parts catalog from Whale.

The three-way "Y" connector for the hose from the manual pump and the hose from the Y Valve to the H.T. that then connects to the thru hull is not such a good idea, IMO.
When pumping overboard, via the Y-valve, the force of the pumping from the head goes to the thru hull rather than backward into the manual Gusher pump only when the outlet flap inside the Gusher is seated properly. Our Gusher had that flapper pushed back thru the orifice fitting into the pump, rendering it worthless. That Y connector will be replaced with a Y Valve when I reassemble the system.

Ericson did manage to "keep it simple" with only the one Y valve to consider, but they then depended on the check valve in the Gusher to stop the pressure going the other way. Not a good idea, IMHO.

You know, if I could just win a lottery I could use the $$$$ to put the "Mark Two" version of my boat back into production!

Sidebar: You lucky guys and gals with hull # 500+ should be a little thankful for all of the running changes / upgrades that improved that model over the years of production!


Loren

ps: Dan, thanks for the specific valve and hose advice.

Holding tank pump out trivia...

Regarding the choice of having the holding tank exit(s) at the side bottom, or via a dip tube down from the top --
I called Ronco this am and they say that about 87% of customers go with the bottom outlet, and the others want the dip tube.

They know of no measureable advantage or disadvantage of one type over the other, based on feedback from customers, except that the second bottom outlet would potentially save some install $ by eliminating a second T-fitting or maybe a valve.

Loren

Dip tube

I am happy to be in the minority... I love the fact that there is nothing in the abyss that can leak, and that I can, in theory, inspect and replace everything w/o pulling the monster out.

Whatever works...