Headsail Design for Cruising E-38

O.K. my wife Taryn and I are in the midst of major outfitting wo we can shoove off and go Cruising- extended Cruising with some serious Offshore. we're plannning about 4 years, leaving from the North East, to sail around the Carribean, than at some point sooner or later go the Canal and cross to the South Pacific.

This thread is my attempt to get advice on the design of our new headsail. We have a new main, 4 full batttens, on a tides Strong Track system with a lazybag/lazy jack set up. I had the sail reinforced for Offshore, and we put two big deep reefing points. my 2nd reef point takes me down to about 35% sail area.

Headsails.... this is where I need help. we have a great Gennacker w/ snuffing sock which is wonderful for light breezes. Winds in the 7knot or better range will sail an E 38 wonderfully with a good Main/headsail combo if you are sloop rigged like us. the rig is nice and tall and she will perform in light stuff with-out the Gennacker. THis has been my experience with the sails we have. But I have two headsails now, a 110% and a 135% genoa. I hate the Genoa. it just doesn;t do anything for the boat, it slows me down in fact. (BTW it's for sale if anyone is interested. used but in good shape.) So I mainly have sailed with 110% but I really feel I could do better and would like a better performing headsail. Also one that is larger, but not larger to a fault. I think the design and cut of the sail is where I can get what I want, but the problem is I just don't have the experience or expertise to know how or what to request of my sail maker. I will probably be using Doyle in Annapolis as they made our Mainsail and it performs awesome.

I just want to get feedback from folks like you out here who can help guide this next major item. Our new Headsail, yet to be designed/ordered. So if you can share some advice Please do. Thanks so much.
AHOY!
Captainspicy.

That is interesting. I had a Doyle 155 Genoa and that on the RF led to being overpowered all the time since 15-20kts is the norm where I am. The Doyle was very full, fairly lightly built, nice for light air but useless above 12kts or so. I had the local Haarstick loft spec a 130 Genoa and the difference is night and day. The new sail is made of heavier material and much flatter. This keeps the boat on her feet and works very well. Its still decent in the light stuff but I also have an asymmetric for that. The 130 makes the best possible compromise for my sailing. If you don't like your 130 I would suggest the cut is all wrong. I am far from an expert at sail design, I just expressed my concerns and what I wanted to the Haarstick rep during several consultations and they delivered. RT

Rob... I suspect the Cut is the problem with my genoa. the clew comes down very low. I wonder how your 130 is cut... I'm not well versed in sailmaking either.

It had been suggested to me to perhaps go for a design with a much higher clew, closer to something like a Yankee. But I just don't know how to advise my sailmaker.

I want a strong off-shore sturdy headsail that will power me nicely fully unfurled in conditions of 6-7knot winds up to 20 knots. I suspect at around 18-20 knots (depending upon my point of sail) I'm going to consider furling some of that headsail. But I'm really after a headsail that would be good in lighter as well as heavier winds. I don't necessarily need it to perform supurb in very light winds (<6 knots) as I will likely want to fly my Gennacker.

I hope to get some more insight here, keep the responses coming thanks!

135-140 is the way to go

I race the boat so I have a number of sails including a 155 designed for use without a furler and a 135 designed for use with the furler. The 135 has a dacron rather than a sunbrella sun cover to keep it light. I have found that unless we are going racing the 135 does just great and is much easier to handle. The loss in speed exists but is in a narrow wind range. Once the wind is up to 10-14 there is no difference. When its very light there is not much of a difference either. When the boat was in San Diego, The 135 was the only sail we used when going out for a pleasure sail.

All my sails have a low clew. I prefer a low clew because if the sail is luffing the clew is not at head height. I also prefer the low clew because I feel it allows the boat to point significantly better. When using a higher clued sail I believe one trades performance for ease of handling. The high clue provides better vision around the sail, Less hastle moving the block when the sail is reefed. and you don't need to clear the sail over the lifelines when going upwind, thats pretty nice at night.

FWIW, the old 155 had a fairly high clew, maybe 6ft off the deck. The new 130 is much lower, just clears the lifelines. I lost plenty visibility going to it. I am okay with it as the boat sails so much better. I have also been quite surprised at how far aft the sheet block has to be to properly shape the 130. Once I figured out what it likes it was a new boat. RT

I would keep the size at or below 135 if you are going offshore because anything bigger will not reef very well. A 150 will reef to about 125 if you are lucky. Any smaller and the shape goes to hell. A 135 will reef to almost 100 and still be fairly good looking. Anything less than 100 and you will probably go to a storm jib or main only or some other combination. What you dont want to have to do is to have to take some big ass genoa off of your furler to put a smaller headsail on in or in anticipation of heavy weather. Changing headsails for the furler is a PITA.

I would also reccomend you talk to Tad Hutchins at the Quantum loft here in annapolis as well. If you would like any help preparing your boat for offshore my rigging shop Southbound Cruising Services would be glad to help with a rig survey or anything else. We prep many boats like the E-38 for blue water. We are in annapolis off edgewood road by jabins. 410-626-6060

140 Genoa

The PO installed on the roller furler a 140 genoa. Would this be satisfactory on the E 27? How would it perform in winds 12-20 knots? What points of reefing would it require? Thanks Chris

headsails...

1. 38 headsail design:

I am sure the problem with your current mid size headsail is one of design-not size. If the fabric is as good as you imply, then it can probably be successfully recut. Given that you have the gennaker, you are set for light-medium air reaching, and as such do not need a full sized headsail (in the 150% range). The ideal mid size sail for you would be something in the 125-135% size, not overly flat (designed to be at it's best in about 12-15T), and with a highish clew. Not too high as this will hurt upwind performance, but high enough for good visibility and to keep the sail slightly off the deck and out of the waves (about waist high I would think). By keeping the sail in the 130% ballpark, you will still have enough sail for good upwind performance in lighter air (you will only be lacking straight upwind in under about 8 knots true-and for light reaching you have the gennaker), but have a good workhorse sail that should roll down to 100% or so with good performance.

Where I would worry more is for heavy air-you really need something smaller than 110% for a heavy air jib. I would have a 90% sail built for furling. In the trades you might find this very nice-especially upwind in 20+ conditions, and for general offshore sailing it is important to have a good heavy air jib..


2). 27-The 140 on a furler is a decent choice for the 27..big enough for lighter air, but small enough that it will roll down to the 110% range and maintain an OK shape (or it should, anyway). The 27 std rig is stiffer than newer e-boats, so can carry a 140 full sized well into the low teens (if the genoa lead is in the right spot!).

Hope this helps,
S

I agree completely with Seth here the only difference in my thoughts are that having to change a sail on a furler is a pain in the but. Having to do it offshore with limited crew in bad weather is downright dangerous. If you are really trying to set the boat up for blue water I would install a detatcheable inner forestay that you can then hank on a staysail to. You can also set these up to be on a furler that is able to be stowed off the deck and out of the way of your genoa when not in use. Another big advantage to this setup is when reefing. When you furl a conventional genoa to reef it moves the center of effort forward and up. When you reef a main it moves the CE down. The combination leaves you with an unbalanced sail plan that is not very effective for going to weather. With the staysail set up you keep the rig balanced. To add the IFS you will also need to add runners and an exit sheave for the halyard. On the 38 you will need to glass in a tierod attachment to the hull under the v-berth and a plate on the deck. When in use there is a hifield(sp?) lever belowdecks that tensions the deck plate to the hull attachment and another lever at the bottom end of the IFS so it can be removed and led aft. If you look at succesfull blue water boats like Valiants you will see they all are set up with staysails and runners. My company regularly installs these with great results.

blue water sailing...

You might check out the Oct. 07 edition of Blue Water Sailing as they had a full tech report from the experts on buying a new headsail... I think it might help.

Ralph

Gale sail?

I've no personal experience with this (I have a hank-on storm jib), but it may be another option:

http://www.atninc.com/gale.html

It's a storm jib that goes around a furled headsail. It would give you the option of a smaller sail, better shaped than the over-furled headsail, and no modifications assuming you've a spare halyard (which I assume since you have a gennaker)... I wonder if anyone here has had experience with these?

No personal experience with these things but I can tell you by looking at it that trying to hoist it in bad weather looks like a PITA. Can't imagine trying to zip it while hoisting it and getting the zipper caught in a piece of the uv cover, not to mention relying on a zipper to keep the sail attached or getting it to slide over a wet furled genoa in a blow. Finally, this thing is really a storm jib or at least purports itself to be one so going from reefed 135 to this woudl be a big step down without a lot in the middle for 25-30kts. The 38 is a fairly tender boat, at least mine is. I find in 15 TWS or more the boat is much happier with a 100% jib. Going with a 135 furler and an inner forstay with a 100% on a furler would be great for offshore. Add a trysail for the main or even easier a third reef at trysail size and you have a lot of options for sail plans. In apparant of 100* or greater you can set the staysail with your gennaker and be powered up in light air. Staysail only upwind in breeze, reefed main and genoa...