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Possible new owner…lots of questions…

mherrcat

Contributing Partner
I have been thinking of possibly purchasing a sailboat and am trying to get an idea if I can afford this hobby. (I have some experience sailing, having once owned a Laser and having sailed on a few 27' boats over the years and a 46' Amel Maramu from New York to Baltimore once.)

I have a lot of questions regarding a couple of used Ericson 30-1's that I have my eye on, so hopefully you all will bear with me. Both boats are in Ventura, CA, but I haven't spoken with the brokers yet. One of them is a 1968 model, the other a 1969. You can see them on the Boats.com website.

One is with Catalina Yacht Anchorage and the other is with Larry Dudley Yacht Sales (Smugglers Cove Yachts.)

Does anyone have any knowledge or opinions about either of these brokers?

The 1968 model is priced considerably less than the 1969, so I assume it will probably need new sails, rigging and possibly a new engine (or rebuild?) This boat is named "Felicity." Is anyone familiar with this boat or know anything about it?

I understand that Ericson's are pretty well made, but since these are basically 40 years old, what should I pay particular attention to when I go see them?

In general, what kind of expense will I be looking at to replace each of the following:

Sails
Standing Rigging
Running Rigging
Engine Replace (engine rebuild?)
Bottom Repaint

How much am I looking at for insurance?

What is the general progression of a purchase? Does my offer to purchase come before the survey? Who pays for the boat to be hauled out for the survey? Is the offer negotiable after the survey? Am I obligated for any costs (other than the survey) if the survey shows the boat needs more repairs than I am willing to make and I decide not to buy?

I have read that in addition to the survey, a "mechanical" inspection of the engine is a good idea. Any idea what this inspection might cost me?

Finally, from what I've been able to gather on the Internet, slip rental in the Ventura/Oxnard area seems to be between $300 and $400 a month for this size boat. Does that sound about right? Are there any places that might be less in the same general area, or maybe further up towards Pismo Beach or Morro Bay?

I realize this is a lot of questions, but I'm trying to get as much info as I possibly can before I contact the brokers so I don't look like a complete idiot. Any help will be greatly appreciated!

Mark Herrick
 

Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
Well, to get you started....

Well, to get you started, I own a 1984 Ericson 30+, our third and largest boat. It is in very good shape, with many of the systems replaced prior to our purchase. I figure to spend about $500 per year on insurance (look into this carefully as there are different kinds of policies out there--full replacement vs. depreciated cost, etc.), $3,000 on regular moorage, $1,800 on guest moorage (for destination sailing) and about $1,500 maintenance costs, so roughly $7,000 per year to maintain a boat that is already in excellent condition.

On the cost of repairs for the areas you identified, a very rough ballpark (and others may have different experiences): new sails about $1,200 per sail minimum; new engine about $8,000 minimum; hauling and bottom repaint, depending on whether you do any of the work yourself and if the bottom is generally in good condition, minimum about $500; standing rigging about $2,000; lifelines about $1,000; odds and ends like bilge pump, head service kit, new hoses, etc. also add up, maybe about $500.

In my experience, you would make a written offer, subject to satisfactory survey, and reach agreement on the deal, with an understanding that the final price will depend on results of the survey. You would pay for the haulout and survey and depending on the result, negotiate a final purchase price. You can either have the seller do the repairs to your satisfaction, or deduct the cost of repairs from the price (I would choose the latter, as then you can determine what materials/workmanship to choose, rather than have the seller install the cheapest parts, etc.). You should be reasonable if it's an older boat, and not expect perfection, so only negotiate downward if there is clearly a malfunction that should be in working order. The initial offer is usually well below asking price (10 - 15 %), but you don't want to be so low as to antagonize the seller, nor do you want to overpay--I suggest checking the market on Yachtworld, and looking at other listings in your area. I think it's usually better to pay a bit more for a boat in good condition rather than getting a "project" boat, as the costs add up, and you spend all your time working on the boat and not sailing, but it depends on your budget and preference (and handiness).

Also, take the boat for a "test sail" before finalizing the purchase (you should write a sea trial into the purchase agreement), to ensure you like how it sails and to ensure that everything is in working order.

Ericsons are great boats, but look for one in good condition, and sometimes newer is also better, rather than buying the first one you see. You may even want to delay your purchase for a while and crew on other people's boats if you are near a marina (others are often looking for additional crew, especially if racing), or at least walk the docks and talk with people about their boats--sometimes they will let you see inside to become familiar with different layouts--and maybe even charter a few times to get some experience with sailing larger boats. In our area we have a charter business that has older boats for lower cost, which would enable you to sail similar aged boats to what you might be considering, if that's available in your area.

Good luck!

Frank.
 
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Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
I second everything Frank said!
In addition, when we bought our 34 footer, the hull survey did not cover the engine, and a mechanic did that survey separately.
So, to complete the purchase, I paid for a haul out, the hull survey, and a separate engine survey.
I should point out that the cost of each survey was more than repaid in hidden problems that they each found and then had the seller repair...
:rolleyes:

I learned a *lot* from watching each surveyor.

Best,
Loren
 

bigtyme805

Member III
Q:One is with Catalina Yacht Anchorage and the other is with Larry Dudley Yacht Sales (Smugglers Cove Yachts.)

Does anyone have any knowledge or opinions about either of these brokers
?

A:Both are well respected in area, but remember they always work for seller.

Q:I understand that Ericson's are pretty well made, but since these are basically 40 years old, what should I pay particular attention to when I go see them?

A: Gosh this is a trick question but look mainly at records and how well the owner kept up the boat, that should give you an indication of what you will need. I know the Catalina dealer took that boat as trade because I have been considering buying a new 34 Catalina and was in the office when that transaction happened. Usually the dealer won't take junk and try to sell it. So that might help you. As far what to look for study the crazing around the turnbuckle area, pay attention to soft decks, means water intrusion. Look at motor always a big expense. Other members can offer more advice on this. You have an excellent panel for Ericsons.

Matt do you have a phone number I will call you and give you all info for area. I once was in your position.
 

mherrcat

Contributing Partner
Many thanks!

Don,

Thanks for speaking with me on the phone last night. Lots of good info. My head is still spinning!


Loren,

Do you happen to recall the cost of the mechanical survey of the engine?

I'm putting together a little spreadsheet of costs and inspection issues to help me get an idea of what I would need to do immediately and what might be able to be deferred for a while.

Thanks again!

Mark Herrick

(Anyone else, feel free to jump in with your experiences/opinions!)
 
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Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
$$ and engines

As I recall, the cost of the engine survey was about $250. This was from a regular diesel mechanic. He ran a compression check, ran it in and out of gear, and generally looked closely at everything mechanical.
He found that the coupler was worn and the shaft was about to back out. In checking the exhaust elbow, he poked a pencil thru the nice-appearing paint that was all that was left of part of it.
I watched and tried to learn a lot, since I had not owned an inboard engine boat before.
Having the seller replace that elbow saved me a lot more than the engine survey cost. :nerd:

Note that most sellers will tend to put off preventative maintenance the last few years of their "declining interest" in boat ownership. I see this all the time in the moorage I manage. Many of those owners never did any regular scheduled maint. in the first place, to make matters worse! :p

Once in a while you will find a true "turn key" boat for sale. It will cost 50% to 100% more than a fixer-upper of the same model and year. If you find such a boat, buy it if all possible financially.
You will then be sailing all the time the first few years rather than repairing.

Unrequested Philosohical Note: in life, your earning and spending ability is always greater than your active life span. OTOH, if you flat-out love the therapy of boat repairs, than enjoy that hobby to the max. :)

Just know what you want... going in...
:egrin:

Loren
 

JMCronan

Member II
The Better Half

A bit off the subject, but......

Make sure you involve your wife/girlfriend in the decisions. I'm sure you will when you purchase but it's even more important later on. She will be much more supportive if she knows whats going on. This is important if you you plan on doing a lot of repairs. My wife is not to found of sitting around and watching me work.:rolleyes: I try to cut down on this by putting her to work too. ;) She does enjoy sailing so I take her out as much as possible and do the work then she can't be there.
Best of luck.
 

mherrcat

Contributing Partner
Reporting back...

I took a quick look at both boats last weekend.

The 1968 model was in need of much cosmetic work (one of the side rails on the main hatch cover actually fell off when I pulled the canvas cover back) and I found some rot in the wood trim strip that runs along the inside of the hull just below the headliner in the forward V-berth, which leads me to believe there is a leak somewhere behind it. I checked the chain plates inside the hull where I could see them and there seemed to be quite a bit of corrosion as well as some corrosion where they exit on the deck side. The only word for the engine is "scary." The standing rigging looked to be in good conditon; no cracks in the swaging. This boat looks like it would ultimately need more put into it than I would be willing to invest.

The 1969 model looked much nicer. The chain plates at the hull mounting points and on deck didn't have the corrosion that the other boat displayed. (There was some moisture on the surface of the fiberglass inside the hull where the port side chain plates attach.) The standing rigging also looked OK; again, no cracks in the swaging. The deck seemed to have a couple of soft spots, but I couldn't be positive; there might have been a little compression when I put weight on them, but it seemed very slight. There was one place where someone had managed to run a screw through the deck about 6 or 8 inches from the toe rail near the front edge of the cockpit. (From the inside, maybe?) The screw was still visible and the area looked like it had some kind of sealant on it to prevent leaking, but the deck in that area seemed a little soft. The sink in the head had been removed (?) and the space in the counter filled in. The bulkhead between the hanging locker and the starboard setee may have been replaced; inside the hanging locker you can see that the bulkhead doesn't go all the way up to the cabin top, there is a gap - don't know if this is normal. There seemed to be some moisture at the bottom of one of the portlights on the port side. The engine looked to be in much better shape than the one in the other boat, but didn't actually run it. There also seemed to be a mounting plate missing where the rudder post enters the cockpit sole; it was visible in the posted pictures, but wasn't there when I looked at the boat. The mast on this boat had previously had 2" removed from the bottom due to corrosion and a wooden spacer installed to maintain the height.

Both boats exhibited some deck compression at the mast step. The second boat seemed to be be much cleaner and better maintained.

Still working out whether the ongoing expenses are something I can handle...

Thanks for your comments and feedback!

Mark
 

Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
Mark, unless you are getting a great price, neither of these boats sound like a great buy to me. With the economy slowing down, I would think there may be more boats coming on the market, maybe in the spring. It took me about a year of looking at lots of boats to find ours, but the wait was worth it to find one in good condition at a decent price.

My experience with boats (having owned three boats to date) is that repairs usually take longer than anticipated, cost more than expected, and tend to reveal more underlying unexpected problems on occasion.

Just my thoughts, based on what you wrote....
Frank.
 

bigtyme805

Member III
Nice report Mark. You can bet these boats require a lot of work and unless you plan on doing yourself you might continue to look. The cost of boats can be a big expense.

I was in your position one time and I really screwed up. I thought I could do the work on a fixer and when I started to realize the time I did the cosmetic things and dumped it for more than I bought for. Whew....

I said after this experience I would never do this again.

Those boats you saw need lots of work and that is normal for a boat that age unless the owner was meticulous about the boat and usually it would not be a deal, you would pay for his appreciation of the boat.

Good luck in your pursuit of finding an Ericson or a good old boat.
 

mherrcat

Contributing Partner
Those are indeed the two boats listed, and the two I looked at. I don't mind doing some cosmetic work or interior work myself, but I believe major fiberglass repair is beyond my abilities at this point. Anything that would require pulling the boat out of the water is something I would probably leave to the yard.

I found this article on rebuilding the mast step and figured this is probably what either of those boats would need to have done:

http://home.comcast.net/~independence31/core/looksbad.html

I may have made the '69 boat sound worse than it actually appears, but I'll probably just take my time and look at some more boats. At least that will proably help me get a better idea of how to judge their condition. Unfortunately, the nicer the boat, the less I can afford it! (I'm trying to limit my start-up costs to about $10,000 to $12,000 including any initial painting or repairs.)

Mark
 
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