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Ericson 31, new engine???

gfb2md

New Member
I have an Ericson 31, hull no. 21. The only one built with a gasoline Atomic 4 engine. It needs to be replaced. Need advice re: replacing with rebuilt from Moyer, switch to diesel, if diesel which one? New to boating. Most advice tells me switching to diesel would not be a good financial decision. Advice please.
 

Glyn Judson

Moderator
Moderator
Powering your E31 hull #21.

Dear friend, You already know that your boat is rarer than rare in E31 circles. If it were mine, I rebuild the existing Atomic 4 either myself or you could have any number of mechanics do the job for you including Moyer. It's about as simple an engine you'd ever want to work on, a tractor engine at heart. Add all the modern Moyer parts including a heat exchanger if you sail in a salt water environment, return her to the engine room. Changes you'd need to make to install a diesel would be to replace the current 3/4" shaft with a 1" one, either bore out the prop strut larger to accept the bigger shaft if possible or have one custom cast as there are no patterns existing that I know of for that strut, add a diesel fuel return line to the tank, possibly replace the throttle and shift mechanism with those compatible with the brand of engine you select and I'm sure there would be additional costly items I just can't think of now. To repeat myself, if it were my money, I'd rebuild that trusty, fuel stingy engine of yours and enjoy your boat. Just the uniqueness of her being the only one in the fleet powered by that engine would be more than enough to convince me to keep it. If you're willing to share some of your information with me such as where you are located, etc. I'd love to have you be a part of the E31 registry and to do so feel free to email me at glynjudson@roadrunner.com, I'm also happy to help you any way I can. Please keep us posted, Glyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey CA
 

Emerald

Moderator
I've got to second everything Glyn has said here. The A4 is a great little engine, and if my E31 had one, I'd rebuild it and keep running it. Would love to see pictures of the installation.
 

mkollerjr

Member III
Blogs Author
Consider electric.

I have and would seriously consider electric, especially on a 30 ft boat. Zero maintenance. Half the cost of a new gas or diesel. Try doing some searches on an internet search engine of your choice. With a good battery bank, supplemented with solar and possibly a small Honda generator, you can cover the distance needed for 99% of most weekend sailors. I've been out on too many boats where they motor their diesel for 10 minutes each way to and from the start line. That's about the worst thing you could do to a fossil fuel motor.
 
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Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
No bad suggestions here... just alternatives.
I would consider the length of time you plan to keep and use the boat. If over ten years (yup, I like round numbers) I would seriously look at converting to diesel.
If less, then save some $$ and rebuild the A4. Maybe.

Upgrading to a new diesel would greatly help sell the boat in the future, as well. The majority of sailboat buyers really prefer diesel engines.
If a diesel, I prefer the Betamarine, but friends with Yanmars seem quite content also.

Loren
 

TakeFive

Member II
After watching a gas boat burn to the waterline at my marina recently, I remain more convinced than ever that gasoline and I don't mix.
But if you own a boat, and the engine needs replacing, it becomes a cost analysis.
A rebuilt A4 will cost you around 5K, not counting local yard fees for hauling engine out and reconnecting things.
A rebuilt 3GM30 would probably cost the same, with the same yard fees, but:

the 3GM will force a number of major modifications. The mounts will need to be relocated, possible requiring stringer mods.
The exhaust system will probably need complete replacement. Electrical system will need rewiring along with new gauges (price the yanmar instrument panel!), fuel system will need to be modified, Shaft may need to be pulled and cut or replaced. if you have to go to 1" add new prop, new cutlass bearing, new stuffing box. engine controls relocated, etc etc etc

Nothing that can't be done if 1) you have unlimited funds or 2) you have a lot of mechanical experience and time.
You might consider swapping in a used A4 in running condition to keep you in the water while you research the issues involved.
 

Afrakes

Sustaining Member
Be afraid , be afraid.

Sorry, but the idiots who burn gas powered boats to the water line are the same idiots that screw up diesel engines with lack of proper maintenance and care. There are literally thousands upon thousands of gas powered boats that don't burn to the water line. There are plenty of other valid reasons to prefer diesels over gas engines. Fear of the fuel is not one of them. Baseless scare tactics for the terminally ignorant. When I bought my 73' A-4 powered E-27 the first thing I discovered was leaky, saturated fuel lines. The smell of fuel in the engine compartment was overpowering. Was that the fault of the fuel? No. Was it the fault of the PO who ignored the situation? Yes. Place the blame where it properly belongs, neglect, misuse and sloppy maintenance. There are also instances of gas powered cars burning due to lousy maintenance. Does that mean we should all just drive diesels? When I was selling my 27 there were a whole bunch of fear mongering "experts" telling my potential buyer that my boat was a powder keg about to explode. That damn A-4 was over forty years old and still going strong and the boat was still intact. So much for the "experts". That boat will keep going as long as it doesn't end up in the hands of an ignorant idiot. Rant over.
 

Alan Gomes

Sustaining Partner
Sorry, but the idiots who burn gas powered boats to the water line are the same idiots that screw up diesel engines with lack of proper maintenance and care. There are literally thousands upon thousands of gas powered boats that don't burn to the water line. There are plenty of other valid reasons to prefer diesels over gas engines. Fear of the fuel is not one of them. Baseless scare tactics for the terminally ignorant. When I bought my 73' A-4 powered E-27 the first thing I discovered was leaky, saturated fuel lines. The smell of fuel in the engine compartment was overpowering. Was that the fault of the fuel? No. Was it the fault of the PO who ignored the situation? Yes. Place the blame where it properly belongs, neglect, misuse and sloppy maintenance. There are also instances of gas powered cars burning due to lousy maintenance. Does that mean we should all just drive diesels? When I was selling my 27 there were a whole bunch of fear mongering "experts" telling my potential buyer that my boat was a powder keg about to explode. That damn A-4 was over forty years old and still going strong and the boat was still intact. So much for the "experts". That boat will keep going as long as it doesn't end up in the hands of an ignorant idiot. Rant over.
Al,
I believe your rant has much to commend it, as rants go. :nerd: I would only add that *some* folks who decry the A-4 as an "Atomic Bomb" have no qualms whatever about cooking with propane. However, I'd suggest that they take a gander at this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yxm3uMy6MPI

Whether it is a propane stove or an A-4, these systems are safe enough if installed, maintained, and operated properly. My boat came with a propane installation that was not up to ABYC spec in several respects. I certainly could have brought it up to spec by replacing a fair number of the pieces, but I made the decision to yank the old propane installation, drop in a non-pressurized alcohol stove, and be done with it. I don't miss the propane at all and am very happy both with the simplicity and with the performance of the alcohol stove. And in my case, the nice little molded in propane locker makes a perfect anchor locker for my stern anchor rode! It even has a nice drain at the very bottom! :clap:But even though (non-pressurized) alcohol is a safer fuel overall, just as diesel is safer relative to gas, I certainly wouldn't criticize anyone for installing either system on his or her boat, so long as it is done properly and maintained well. And if not, well, I'd hope that I might somehow get wind of it (through the smell of the fumes, perhaps?) and be able move my boat to the other end of the marina before it blows! :0
 

Emerald

Moderator
No reason to fear gas, as has already been said.

I would not even consider electric for one second on this boat. She is a heavy displacement at 11500 for her length, and the very common 2QM15 is pretty unsatisfactory in any sea state, which is why you see so many of us going to a 3GM30 or similar. I think your range and extended cruising speed would suck with electric. This is a boat that really can be used for long distance cruising, so if I were changing fuel sources, I would highly recommend increasing range, not decreasing it. That said, the A4 has lots to recommend it, and unless you are heading off for some long distance cruising or just really like projects and spending money, fix the A4. Not sure where you are on the do it yourself spectrum, but if you pay someone to swap from gas to diesel, it will be very expensive. The cabinetry is removable around the nav. station and access is not bad. You can easily maneuver the A4 out of there and fix it and drop it back in, if it really even needs to get pulled. What is wrong with this engine anyway?
 

Mark F

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
>I think your range and extended cruising speed would suck with electric.

Depends how you setup your EP system. Generally range and cruising speed are less than ICE's but there are many advantages.:)
 

mkollerjr

Member III
Blogs Author
Here is a good blog by someone who converted his Nonesuch 30 (10,050 lb displacement) to electric back in 2008. It's still going strong and he has no regrets. If you scroll through his posts, there is good data on performance, range, etc...

http://biankablog.blogspot.com/2008/05/going-electric.html

Of course, this is coming from me, someone with a strong running low hours Yanmar with no plans of re-powering anytime soon! But, if I had a smaller boat, and had to re-power....

Mark
 

Emerald

Moderator
>I think your range and extended cruising speed would suck with electric.

Depends how you setup your EP system. Generally range and cruising speed are less than ICE's but there are many advantages.:)

EP has it's place, but it just wouldn't be the direction I'd go with this heavy displacement semi-full keel boat. I was in a situation a few years back where my main got trashed, staysail only couldn't make headway, my only crew member was a novice and it really got down to motor or else. Pretty much the nastiest chop I've seen on the Chesapeake pushing us toward shoals. My 3GM30 at my normal max cruising RPM was just able to keep about 2 knots of headway where normally we'd be doing 6.2+ I felt like just about when we got some headway, we'd get hit hard enough to about stop us. The trip home was several hours like this. So, having lots of power and fuel reserves to make the power go has become a big issue for me. Just my personal preference.
 

steven

Sustaining Member
Just got an estimate for $15k engine and labor to replace A4 in my E35 with a Beta 20 deisel.
For around half of that I could put in electric motor, a couple of fast charging AGM batteries, and a generator.

A new-like A4 is not a bad idea - except that it's getting hard to find A4 mechanics.

Are used diesels cheaper and worth the gamble?

--Steve
 

dt222

Member III
Just to give another vote for a new or rebuilt A4. I think most of us with that engine serve as our own mechanics- the engine is very easy to work on with the guidance of a Moyer manual, the help/advice of the folks on the Moyer discussion board, and even phone help from the Moyer parts department.

Don
 

Afrakes

Sustaining Member
A-4

I second Don's thoughts. These engines are extremely simple to work on if you put forth the effort.
 

Emerald

Moderator
Another A4 vote - and a new set of sails with all the money you'll save. Regarding the availability of mechanics, if your marina has any mechanic worth his salt, they can work on an A4. If you can't figure out how to work on an A4, then you shouldn't be calling yourself a mechanic. You really can't get any simpler. Moyer even has new blocks. Fix it.

http://www.moyermarine.com/new_bare_block_assembly.htm

Regarding your used diesel question, it's possible to come up with a good solid used one. I did for 300 bucks, but it was a stroke of luck. If you have time and just keep digging, you may find something. I'd wager you're more apt to spend a couple thousand though.

You already know my thoughts of electric on this particular boat......:0
 

bradh

Member II
Inspiration....

Some inspiration.... My father just returned from a trip to Cuba and saw some great vehicles (picture below). Same era of power plant design as the A4 motor in your boat. Most still had their original engine (but some had converted to Russian Diesels).

I have an A4 in my boat and the simplicity/elegance is fantastic. With the low compression ratio, I have to think if you take care of it, it could last as long as we are able to get wear parts.

Brad


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steven

Sustaining Member
Had a very nice lengthy talk with Ken at Moyer.

So have decided to go with a new A4.
I'll probably do the install myself (except for aligning the shaft - I'm not sure I can do that).

I guess I'll have to learn to work on the engine. *sigh* I thought it was a sailboat.


Thanks everybody for the (very) good advice.

--Steve
 

Alan Gomes

Sustaining Partner
Good call

Had a very nice lengthy talk with Ken at Moyer.

So have decided to go with a new A4.
I'll probably do the install myself (except for aligning the shaft - I'm not sure I can do that).

I guess I'll have to learn to work on the engine. *sigh* I thought it was a sailboat.


Thanks everybody for the (very) good advice.

--Steve
I think you made the right call. This will be the least hassle by far and I believe you are going to have a good result. You should get many years out use out of your new A4. I assume that it will have all the "latest" bells and whistles, such as FW cooling, electronic ignition, etc.

Since you are replacing an A4 with an A4, I don't think the alignment is going to be too difficult to get dialed in. Probably Moyer could talk you through it easily enough. Even paying a mechanic to do it should not set you back too much.
 
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