1984 E-28 - Structure under bilge?

Was installing a new bilge pump in the most forward of the small bilge compartments in my 1984 E-28. I had removed the screws which held the old pump base down and removed the old base. I hand pumped out the bilge and was sponging out the remainder when I noticed water weeping up though the two small holes where the old pump was secured. Was surprised by this and spent some time repeatedly sponging it dry to confirm, yes, the water was coming up slowly through those holes.

The screws (size 6 or 8?) are only about 1/4" long. I reused them to mount the new pump. When screwing them in they seemed to bottom on something. This left the pump a bit loose. The bottoming out prevented the head of the screw from pressing the base tight against the bottom of the bilge.

What is the structure of the boat under this bilge area? I assume I have the keel. I don't think the previous screws had gone all the way through the boat since I would have seen this when the boat was pulled.

Whatever it is, it might explain why I can never seem to get a dry bilge. I recently installed a dripless packing seal thinking that's what's been doing it all these years. I might have some topside rainwater leaks but those are minimal since what I pick up in the bilge over the winter while on the hard is minimal. But when I come back to the boat after a week, even with little or no rain, I've got substantial water in the bilge.

I hear the Shangri La of the "dusty bilge". I'd be happy with damp and musty, just not constant standing water.

http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?t=4745&referrerid=28

This thread, among several others on this site, discusses water accumulation in the TAFG. Perhaps this will help. It sounds like your boat may have some water "in the grid."



Loren

Loren,

Thanks for the reference. I didn't think my generation of boat had the TAFG but those bilge pictures in that thread look a lot like mine. I was never worried about those holes I have in the fore and aft walls of the bilge. Always just assumed they were limber holes. Mine don't even have what looks like a fitting around the opening, just holes drilled into the fiberglass.

That may explain the water weeping up from the holes drilled in the bottom of the bilge. Water in the grid will drain out those limber holes down to the level of lower lip. The remaining 1/2" or so remains as a pool, and this pool may extend under the finished bottom of the bilge "pockets". Theoretically, the holes will weep until the level in the bottom of the bilge pocket is level with the level within the grid. If I kept mopping up the bilge pocket I should eventually drain the grid.

Sound right?

The presence of a grid might also explain the amount of water in the bilge after my enthusiastic sail in Fishers Island Sound Sunday. Some rail in the water and bounding over wakes may have "shook out" some water from the grid. If so, it makes me a little less nervous that I might be slowly sinking the boat. If I get around to it I could try an experiment and inject a little food dye into the limber holes and see if that color water comes up through the pump mount holes.

Also maybe means once I shake out some more water from the grid, I might eventually end up with at least a dryer bilge. (Shake out that reef and go for it).

Still wondering what the screws are hitting as I screw them in. The top of the keel maybe?

I also see what appears to be keel bolts in the pictures in the referenced thread. I commented in another discussion that I couldn’t locate them and it was suggested I look closer. This picture pretty much tells me I've looked at all possible visible areas of the bilge. If there are bolts, they're inaccessible under the grid somewhere.

I had water weeping up from where a PO had epoxied over cloth, wood, plastic and other scraps of unknown material to fill in the bottom 8 inches or so. The mixture had long since been saturated with water, oil, and God knows what else.

I was on the hard when I discovered it, so I was a bit startled to see water appearing to leak into the boat...

I too have the same problem...

on my 1983 E28+. The area under the bilge will accumulate about 5 gal. of water before it will overflow into the bilge. I use a small West Marine hand bilge pump onto which I epoxied a small funnel on the bottom and then attached 3/8 hose to. I shove the hose into the small holes in the bilge which allow access to the area above the keel and pump out the water. After a few weeks the keel will fill up again.

I have no idea where the water comes from, since I have a PSS dripless stuffing box and no water appears to leak in from the through hulls or where the deck is joined to the hull. I'm not too worried about it since it is a small amount of water, but I does have me puzzled.

Mark Tuccillo
1983 E28+ "Wing It"

Mark Tuccillo said:

on my 1983 E28+. The area under the bilge will accumulate about 5 gal. of water before it will overflow into the bilge. I use a small West Marine hand bilge pump onto which I epoxied a small funnel on the bottom and then attached 3/8 hose to. I shove the hose into the small holes in the bilge which allow access to the area above the keel and pump out the water. After a few weeks the keel will fill up again.

I have no idea where the water comes from, since I have a PSS dripless stuffing box and no water appears to leak in from the through hulls or where the deck is joined to the hull. I'm not too worried about it since it is a small amount of water, but I does have me puzzled.

Mark Tuccillo
1983 E28+ "Wing It"

Click to expand...

Mark,

I seem to be in EXACTLY the same situation as you. I installed the dripless seal system last winter and was finally hoping for a dry bilge. Every other "hole" in the boat is accounted for and tight (accessible closed throughhulls with absolutely no sign of leakage). I assumed I was getting just a very slow drip through the packing.

But even with aboslutely dry weather (eliminating top side leaks) I still get a build up in my bilges.

However, I had no idea that there could be that much volume in the "sub bilge". I'll have to try your pump out method and see how long the "main bilge" stays dry. Like you, I must have some kind of mysterious very slow leak, but where?

Mark & Jim,

Just for your information, my situation is similar on my 1984 E30+. My bilge is completely dry when the boat is at dock (I use a turkey baster and sponge to get the last drops out before I leave the boat), regardless of how long it sits between sails, and regardless of rain. But when sailing, after an afternoon of sailing in about 15 knot winds, I have about a cup of water in the bilge. I also have a dripless shaft seal.

I have looked everywhere--checked all hose connections, checked the dripless seal, rudder post, seacocks, etc. and everything looks dry, even right after returning to the dock after sailing, but I still have that cup or so of seawater (yes, it's salty) in the bilge. The keel bolts were rebedded and retorqued in 2001, so I don't think it's coming up through the keel bolts.

Although I don't have any suggestions for where the water is coming from, or how to stop it, I'm writing this just to let you know that your situation is not unique. I will continue to look for the source, and will let you know if I have any success.

Frank.

Well, I followed up on Mark's suggestion and using some clamps, PVC and a barb fitting, made an extension to my hand bilge pump. Snuck 1/2" hose through those "limber holes". I don't think I got 5 gallons but at least a surprising 2 or 3 gallons. Then pumped out the last bits in the visible bilge and mopped up with a sponge.

Based on Mark's experienced I hoped to see my visible bilge stay dry for a while. No such luck. Within a couple hours I had my usual 1/4" or so in the bilge. This is a really strange leak (has been since I bought the boat) since it seems to be self limiting to about a 1/2" or so in the bilge. I do keep the automatic bilge pump in auto while I'm gone but the level seems to stay below the turn-on, then turn-off level.

I did my usual stem to stern inspections of through hulls (for at least the 20th time) and my new dripless packing. Everything is closed and dry.

Mark, I see you're from Southington and the boat name is "Wing It". That name sounds familiar. Are you at the Noank Village Boat Yard? If so, we should compare bilges (You show me yours, I'll show you mine).

Another Possibility

I'm still trying to track down the source of water in my bilge (an essentially endless process). Gone through every single through hull again. All are bone dry. I have also, once again isolated the hoses from my fresh water tank, filled it with water colored with food dye. Hope to get to the boat Sunday and see if I have red water in my bilge. Then, I have it isolated to a leaky fresh water tank (despite removing it a couple years ago and test filling it, finding no leaks).

However, another possibility has dawned on me and I'm seeing if anyone's experienced this.

Could I be having a leak in the hull to keel joint? I've ruled this out in the past because while she's on the hard, I don't see any signs of a crack, not even in the bottom paint. However, I just realized, when in the water the keel "hangs" from the hull which could expand a crack, allowing water in. But, while on the hard the hull "sits" on the keel so any crack would be compressed. I thought about doing the dyed water bit this fall by filling the bilge with red colored water and checking the keel area. However, this "sitting compression" might close up whatever gaps might be present.

I'd be able to check this while she was sitting in a sling. However, the logistics of this are tough. My yard is pretty helpful, but when they're in the fall boat pulling season "scheduling" a pulling time just for me to be there is a big favor to ask. I can ask them to keep an eye on this joint, but again, this is in the middle of their rush period and I wouldn't be surprised if this gets forgotten. Other alternative is to have the boat lifted for inspection sometime later, but this would come at a cost.

I may try doing a dive on the boat before the end of the season and see if I can detect something. However, if it's a hairline crack I might not notice it while underwater.

As I think I've mentioned before, I have no access to the keel bolts through my bilge. I can't even confirm that I have keel bolts somewhere in the "sub bilge". So I can't check their compression.

If it is something like this, sounds like any repair would require either slinging the boat or supporting it in a cradle to let the keel hang free. Sounds like a job I'd end up having the yard do.

Guess I'm asking the folks here if they've ever experienced this phenomenon themselves, meaning a crack in this joint while in the water, but not visible when on the hard?

New owner 1986 E28

Bildge is dry as a bone - but I scanned the thread to see if there were things I should know.

Ice box drains to the bildge -- so be aware of that. There are alot of places water can drain/leak from. Hotwater heater - leaky hose some place in the head or engine area. Leaky raw water foot pump- etc. Leaky through hull valve. I would suspect these before a hull to keel joint unless there is damage from a hard grounding at some point.

My major off-season project this year is to replace the teak and holly sole. I'm in the templating stage and haven't ripped out the old sole yet. That may give me a few hints as to if there is indeed a "hidden bilge". I certainly don't want to be the first one to experiment with cutting the bottoms out of the visible bilge pockets.

Has anyone else ventured into this hidden realm?

Cabin Sile Projext

Hi Jim,

Check this old thread of mine.

http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoex...bin-sole-for-1983-E28&highlight=Mark+Tuccillo

Let me know if you need any more info.

Mark

1983 E28+ "Wing It"

Water in Bilge 1981 28+

Hi Respected Members

Two leak sources discovered on our 1981 28+. We do not have the tafg.

On Launch in 81 stern major marlon cockpit thru hull drain exhibited a crack that only leaked when underway and thru hull was submerged. Took a month to see it leak. Replaced with bronze thru hull.

A few years ago the stern nylon plastic engine salt water overflow cracked and leaked. Very hard to find as the stern has dark brown plywood and the crack in the thru hull was between the plywood and the fiberglass. When we touched the hose the thru hull popped out. Replaced with another nylon thru hull as it is high above water level. Caulked and tightened gently.

Both leaks were very hard to isolate because of their awkward location and double wall fiberglass/plywood bulkhead.

We benefit from reading all these posts. Hope this helps somebody.

Pat O'Connell
Chips