Olson 34 keelbolt problems

JamesBlakeJones · Apr 19, 2007

Listmates,
My boatyard has just discovered that my keelbolts are shot. One was rusted all the way through, the others in bad shape. The proposed fix: buy a keelbolt kit from Catalina and fasten these new lag bolts into the lead of the keel. In addition, carve a hole in the front of the keel 10 inches down, drill and install a piece of allthread from this point on the keel up into the bilge, with nuts on either end.
Anyone had experience with this problem? Does the proposed fix sound reasonable? Naturally, we don't want the keel to fall off.
Thanks!!
James Jones
Seattle
"Sunwood"
jonesblake@aol.com

Cory B · Apr 20, 2007

keel bolt stubs?

James,

Are they rusted all the way down to the keel, or just from where they enter the bilge up? If the latter, it may allow for some additional repair options, which was the situation we were in last year.

-Cory

JamesBlakeJones · Apr 20, 2007

Cory, I'm going to the boatyard this afternoon, to see for first time what the bolts look like since the nuts have been removed. One bolt was rusted all the way through. The others, I think the threads were rusted away where they contacted the nut, so that some of the nuts were free to spin. A portion of the bolt/stud was still in good shape, above the rusted out threads.
I'd be very interested in what solution you found.
Thanks in advance!
Jim

Geoff Johnson · Apr 20, 2007

Somewhere else on this site where the problem was discussed, I believe the solution was to dig into the lead down to good metal, attach a collar to the existing J-bolt and then screw a stud into the collar. I would think that would be much more secure than screwing lag bolts into the keel as they would be held in the lead only by threads instead of the existing hook. You would also have to change the spacing of the holes through the bottom of the boat if I understand the proposed repair correctly.

Cory B · Apr 21, 2007

Keel bolt sleeving

James,

If you search the forums you will find a few really good threads on keel bolts. Our problems and a few pictures are in the thread here. I'll happily share with you anything that we learned which wasn't in that thread.

We are confident that our "sleeved" bolts, 1/4" solid (& sistered) stainless backing plates (no more cheesy washers), and gobs of epoxy is better than new. As Geoff suggests, I don't think we would have had the same confidence in lag screws.

-Cory

JamesBlakeJones · Apr 21, 2007

Olson 34 keelbolts

Cory, Thanks so much for your reply, and your link to the previous thread. I like the idea of sleeves for the keelbolts, if we find that the lower part of the keelbolts are intact. I will talk it over with the boat yard and see what they think. Their latest proposal is to cut/drill windows in the keel in front and in back to run allthread rod down from the bilge, with a nut or toggle on the bottom end, while reusing the keelbolts: if they look reasonable after the keel is dropped, they would put in a thicker stainless backing plate so that the keel bolt nuts are above the area of damage. Obviously, in this case, they would not be as strong as originally designed, as there is some corrosion below where the nut will be.
I couldn't discern from the thread which type of stainless is best.
I'll be back in touch if I need more information after I talk to the boatyard.
Many thanks!
Jim Jones

JamesBlakeJones · Apr 25, 2007

Olson 34 keel bolts

Listmates,
Today the boatyard lifted the boat partially off the keel. They found two more bolts completely rusted through.This is a total of three completely gone. The sleeve method suggested by Cory might not be strong enough with 3 bolts gone. I'll go see it later today and possibly post pictures. We'll know more when the keel cradle becomes available, and they get the boat all the way off the keel.
Jim Jones
"Sunwood"

JamesBlakeJones · Apr 28, 2007

Olson 34 keelbolts

The latest is that the boatyard is recommending we build a new lead keel. Three of 9 keelbolts completely rusted through, 3 more significantly damaged. So we think we can have a mould made for 2K, the keel for $4200, and finished,faired and installed for another $2500. It comes out considerably less than reattaching the old keel, fiberglassing the useless holes in the bottom of the boat, etc. Non-Ferrous Metals of Seattle and/or Gill Aluminum will make the mould and pour the lead. We'll use Aquamet 22 for the new keel bolts. I am attaching a picture of one keel bolt. Note that it looked perfectly fine on top!
Jim

Cory B · Apr 28, 2007

KeelBolts

Wow. So were the old bolts then corroded all the way down to the keel? We had probably an inch to an inch and a half of good bolt above the keel before the corrosion started (about the height to the backing washer inside the bilge), which was enough meat to sleave... where the bolt went into the keel was corrosion free. Do you happen to have a picture of the keel?

For comparison sake, the fabrication costs for the sleaves and oversized backing plates on our keel were around $800 IIRC. Since the sleaves widened the bolts the holes in the keel shoe and to be enlarged. On the Ericson there was plenty of room to do all that, and I think the # of bolts holding the keel was quite a bit higher that the "rule of thumb" suggested. 9 of our 12 bolts required sleeving. I imagine the Olson was probably contstructed a little differently, and as a higher performance boat.

As expensive as new keel is, if your options narrow you down to that, it sure sounds a lot better than the lag bolts that were initially discussed.

Just be happy you caught all this now instead of on a windy beat.

-Cory

JamesBlakeJones · Apr 28, 2007

Olson 34 keel bolts

Cory, There were nubs of keel bolts above the keel. The three that were completely rusted through were too short in my estimation to sleeve. Three others were corroded to a noticeable smaller diameter all the way down to the keel. The yard didn't think sleeving was an option. I wasn't excited about the lag bolt method. I've attached a picture. It doesn't show all the bolts but will give you an idea of the problem.
Regards,
Jim

Cory B · Apr 28, 2007

Yuck

Yuck, that has us beat.

It really sucks to be hit with BIG unexpected costs...

At least its a boat worthy of sinking some money into.

- Cory

JamesBlakeJones · Jun 27, 2007

Olson 34 keelbolts

Listmates, an update on my keelbolt problem: The machine shop was able to drill out the old keelbolts, at considerable expense, and replaced them with new ones, screwed into toggles that pass horizontally through the keel. If anyone wants pictures, I will post them. The newly fitted out keel fits in the old holes in the bottom of the boat. Now the yard just has to epoxy it all together, while trying to make sure the keel is centered and vertical. No date yet on when we'll get the boat back.
Jim
"Sunwood"

Loren Beach · Jun 27, 2007

Innovative Solution...

JamesBlakeJones said:
Listmates, an update on my keelbolt problem: The machine shop was able to drill out the old keelbolts, at considerable expense, and replaced them with new ones, screwed into toggles that pass horizontally through the keel. If anyone wants pictures, I will post them. The newly fitted out keel fits in the old holes in the bottom of the boat. Now the yard just has to epoxy it all together, while trying to make sure the keel is centered and vertical. No date yet on when we'll get the boat back.
Jim
"Sunwood"

Now that IS a solution I had never thought of. Yes indeedy, we would love to see all the photos you want to post. At two decades and older, all of these Ericsons with external lead keels should have that big old piece of shapely lead fin rebedded anyway... and it is really good to share information about what might be lurking inside that joint and various ways to address any needed repair.

Best wishes,
Loren

rwthomas1 · Jun 28, 2007

This leaves me wondering what a new keel from Mars Metals, etc. would cost? IIRC, they have a CNC mill that can create any profile needed. Considering the cost of a rebuild it might not be that bad. Glad it could be fixed and workable though! RT

JamesBlakeJones · Jul 1, 2007

Loren Beach said:
Now that IS a solution I had never thought of. Yes indeedy, we would love to see all the photos you want to post. At two decades and older, all of these Ericsons with external lead keels should have that big old piece of shapely lead fin rebedded anyway... and it is really good to share information about what might be lurking inside that joint and various ways to address any needed repair.

Best wishes,
Loren

Loren, I am attaching photos of the keel, keelbolts and toggles that the keelbolts bolt into. Since these photos were taken, they have epoxied the whole rig together. Soon they will fair out the holes and scars in the keel, put the mast back in, and put her in the water!
Jim

rwthomas1 · Jul 1, 2007

Wow! Now that strikes me as a very strong repair, at least equal to if not stronger than the original. A good idea and fairly "simple" in execution. Cool. RT

JamesBlakeJones · Jul 1, 2007

rwthomas1 said:
This leaves me wondering what a new keel from Mars Metals, etc. would cost? IIRC, they have a CNC mill that can create any profile needed. Considering the cost of a rebuild it might not be that bad. Glad it could be fixed and workable though! RT

The boat yard first took the keel to a foundry for a quote on building a new keel. First they would have to make a mold, then pour a keel with new keel bolts in place. Lead contracts as it cools, causing the keelbolts to shift position. Anyway, it was sounding like $12k before fairing and installation of the keel. The repair should end up less expensive though no bargain.
Jim
"Sunwood"

JamesBlakeJones · Jul 1, 2007

Olson 34 keel bolt problems

rwthomas1 said:
Wow! Now that strikes me as a very strong repair, at least equal to if not stronger than the original. A good idea and fairly "simple" in execution. Cool. RT

I'm counting on it being very strong--it looks like it should be. Simple in concept, I'm not so sure about execution. Drilling out stainless steel 3/4" bolts is no walk in the park, not to mention the hassles of moving a 3400 pound keel around. I've given them all my money, first born male child, etc., but it looks like a good repair.
Jim
"Sunwood"

Loren Beach · Jul 1, 2007

Keel Alternative

Several years ago, I went over to our local OEM, Schooner Creek Boatworks, and asked about a shoal draft change for our boat.
S____ told me that he would do a steel fin with a torpedo bulb at the bottom -- similar to what they have done on several custom performance sailboats over the years. This would, because of the hollow steel foil section, even incorporate an additional diesel tank (SOP for this set up).

The idea would have been to reduce our draft from 6 down to 5 feet or even 4'10". This may not sound like a huge change, but in the Columbia River would open up quite a bit of additional fear-reduced sailing and cruising. Idea would be to keep the righting moment and windward performance the same.

He asked me to not get him started into this idea (drafting, foil selection, possible N.A. fees) unless I had around 8K set aside for the job, total. Now with the price of metals up this would likely be more expensive...

With 20/20 hindsight, I probably should have done it. Maybe.

"You never *really* know about the road not taken."

Loren

JamesBlakeJones · Sep 14, 2007

Olson 34 keel bolts

Sunwood has been back in the water for about 6 weeks now. The keel bolt repair was quite expensive, but they seemed to do a good job. At least the keel hasn't fallen off yet. Thanks to everyone for their ideas as I worked on this project!
Jim Jones

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