Cruising with an E38

My wife and I have gotten a little more serious about going cruising. When I asked her when she wanted to go, she replied "I see us leaving in 5 years" This was a bit unexpected for me as I was thinking 10years out or so. Hey, she wants to go, I'm not complaining! So the question becomes how to get the E38 ready or should we consider another boat?

Reading various cruising texts there are many different opinions on how much boat, necessary equipment, etc. I have identified, based on reading, a few areas where I see the E38 as deficient for anything but coastal cruising:

Cockpit locker doors-Not watertight, not particularly robust. I suppose the hatches could be reinforced as necessary, heavier hinges, locking hasps, and weatherstriping. In event of a knockdown or a cockpit full of water this should minimize the amount of water entering through these openings.

Companionway-Same issues, not particularly watertight. I see replacing the nice teak hatch boards with a single or two piece marine ply setup. Then reinforcing the fairly flimsy teak strips that hold the boards in place.

Anchor/Ground Tackle-Most texts seem to call for at least a 45lb primary anchor and up to a 70lb storm anchor. They also recommend a bow configuration to hold two anchors, one setup with all-chain rode and a windlass. While I know all this can be done, the modifications are quite extensive. There is also the issue of adding all that weight to the bow of a design that is known for having a fine, narrow section and not much bouyancy to carry it.

Rigging-Adding an inner forestay and or running backstays. Not a huge deal, just money!

Engine-Do I trust a 20+ year old engine with 3200hrs on it? I am tempted to do so. Replace the engine mounts, add large dual fuel filters, full service, etc. The engine runs great, just needs a new heat exchanger.

Cockpit drains-Most texts recommend installing larger drains. I was thinking to increase the size of the two drains that empty through the transom. Increasing to 2" or 2.5" wouldn't be to difficult for these. The two drains that empty into a 1.5" thru-hull I would leave alone. No room to increase the size of that thru-hull.

Other things need to be addressed like rebuilding the hatches and portlights, steering, etc. There are also limitations of a 38ft boat like 65gallons of water and 35 gallons of fuel. These can be lived with and worked around. I am mainly concerned with safety and seaworthness upgrades.

That or do we sail the E38 for a few years and start looking for a Valiant 42??

Any input appreciated, RT

Personally it seems to me that it would be more cost effective to boat that's already outfitted for cruising. All those extras will be expensive when added to your boat, and may make the boat a bit of a white-elephant. You may not get your money back when selling, since most people looking at an E38 will probably have coastal cruising or weekending in mind.

I'd look for a boat coming home from the cruising grounds (or left in the cruising grounds when the captain and the admiral split up!) and buy that in the next 2-3 years. That'll give you another 2 years to get that boat in tip-top shape.

Congrats! The 5-year plan begins!

I'm not so sure--many of the mods you mentioned don't sound too expensive to me. Keeping the E38 means you know the boat, have become comfortable and confident sailing her, and then you still have a coastal cruiser for when you get back to "normal life". So unless you feel the E38 isn't in as good condition as you would want, and are not prepared to fix that, I'd be inclined to keep it and do the mods.

It would be helpful if others could add their thoughts, especially comparing the E38 to more "bluewater" boats in terms of structural soundness and storm capability--depending on their comments, I might change my mind, but so far, I like Ericsons!

Enjoy the pre-trip planning and day-dreaming!
Frank.

Make the changes anyway...

I can't say I'm in the same boat, but I have the same dilemma. Your concerns are magnified on my 34-footer.

I haven't deluded myself into thinking my boat will take me around the world, but I do sail in the open ocean every week, and we're often 40 miles offshore headed to the outter Channel Islands in Southern California. We've been to Mexico once, and we'll do several more trips to Ensenada before heading to Cabo San Lucas in the fall. Is this considered "coastal cruising?"

Regardless of how you classify it, the boat needs to be seaworthy. I am in the process of making all the changes you mentioned, with the exception of the ultra-heavy ground tackle. The cockpit lockers need hasps and gaskets, the drains need to be 10 sizes larger, the companion way needs to be beefed up and the boards need to be secured from inside, the silly unsecured chain hawse needs to be secured, etc. I need a bow roller and windlass (both of which seem nearly impossible to mount without doing some surgery). I think this is basic stuff, and I'm a little surprised that Ericsons were sold without most of these modifications.

As for ocean crossings, I'd find a Valiant or Pacific Seacraft if I could afford it. Hell, you can pick up a decently equipped Valiant 40 for under $100k (watch for blister problems). Bob Perry is beginning to design a new 53-footer for Valiant, and is pretty far along with his new 38.5-footer for Paciic Seacraft.

By the time my kids are in college and we're free to head out, the Valiant 53 should be ready. Meanwhile, I need to stock up on lottery tickets.

MarkA said:

I think this is basic stuff, and I'm a little surprised that Ericsons were sold without most of these modifications.

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It's basic stuff for real cruising (not necessarily Blue-Water) but most production boats like the Ericsons were not designed or built for cruising. They were built (and for the most part used) for yacht club racing, weekend outings, and the occasional week-long trip.

Those "basics" aren't as much of a priority for that kind of use.

Things I'd want in an extended cruising blue water boat, that the Ericson doesn't seem to offer, is a protected rudder, a bilge, heavier/higher bulwarks on deck, more room at the bow for anchor carrying and anchor workspace. Those are a couple of the things that I don't think can be changed about the boat. I don't think they're issues for ocean sailing like Mark describes, but ocean CROSSING, seems to demand much more. Taking the Bermuda route to the tropics, or taking off from So. Ca or Panama for the South Pacific - those are the sort of routes for which I'd look for a bonafide "offshore" boat.

Anyone read "Lattitudes and Attitudes" magazine? Captain Woody sailed around the world in an old beat up Cal 33. People cruise safely on much less, and many Ericson 38's have gone a long way. Every boat has it's limitations. Know that they are there, how to deal with them, correct them as best you can. There is no reason that an Ericson 38 can't take you away safely. Rig her up as best you can and enjoy your cruise. I'm sure the Ericson 38 will take you to many great places and back safely. I hope to have the same adventure, and I would not think twice about sailing away on our 1989 38-200. Best of luck

(I swear many of the information articles on what is needed on a boat for a cruise is written by our friends at West Marine :jollyroge )

I actually can accept the problems with the E38 with only one outstanding issue. The spade rudder for me is a non-issue. Many people cruise boats designed like this. Yes you are more likely to damage a rudder in event of an impact. Thats the way things go. The E38 is built plenty tough and the upgrades I have listed should complete the package but the outstanding issue would be the ground tackle.

I am not really sure why TWO anchors on the bow are so important. I have a spare in the cockpit locker and the primary is on 60ft of BBB and 210ft of 3/4" nylon. There is no windlass but I have a strong back and pull this gear regularly. I may not be able to when I get older but for the next 10yrs it shouldn't be a problem. I really don't want to hang that much weight on the bow nor do I want to get into the cutting and fabrication required to install a windlass and a proper rode locker.

Doing this correctly would require a rode locker installed in the bow, low in and in front of the forward water tank with the chain/rode led up though a long hawse pipe. The only practical drain from a low mounted chain locker would be to have it empty into the bilge. Not something I want to do.

I have noticed my E38 seem pretty sensitive to weight in the bow. Changes in bow water tankage make pretty large differences at the waterline. This is the main reason I feel that installing a windlass, chain rode, chain locker, etc. would compromise this boat.

So how important is this anyway? I know the E38 design has been cruised successfully. Is manual single anchor operation a big deal? I get mixed stories from the cruising books. Some recommend two anchors all the time, ready to go. Others recommend actually removing and stowing the anchors on long passages. So which is it? I am guessing that there really is no "right" way to do this, just what works for you.

Thanks, RT

Anchoring scares the crap out of me because we're woefully under prepared--and because so are most of the others in the anchorages.

In my neighborhood (Southern California coast and Channel Islands) most anchorages are 100+ feet deep, yet very close to shore. At even 5:1 scope, that's a lot of nylon rode to haul, let alone chain. If you're dragging or swinging too close to your neighbor, you better pull it now, or else. But if you have to do that manually, the tendancy is to wait until things get really dicey. That's not good. Broken hulls on the shore are decaying proof of that.

I wish I could understand why Ericson would build a 34-foot "racer/cruiser" without so much as a bow roller. To make matters worse, there is no place to mount one given the configuration of the stem, pulpit, cleats, toe rails, and impossible access below decks. Instead, I am forced to break my back and abrade my rub rail as I manually pick the hook. WTF? I don't care how small a boat is, or what it was designed for, but a boat without an anchor is simply a death trap. The bow on my boat is the most idiotic thing I've ever seen on the water--and I've seen a lot of idiocy.

Windlass is optional, I suppose. But if you need to pull a 35lb anchor, 100 feet of chain, and 400-500 feet of nylon at 3:00 a.m. after a grueling day, sleepless night, and you've already dragged 3 times that night, and you're re-setting that anchor drag alarm hoping to get some shut-eye.... Get a windlass.

Pulling the anchor should be a no-brainer. When in doubt, pull it and re-set without thinking about the effort or hoping some miracle will set it for you while you doze off ('cause you're gonna wake up in a cold sweat either way).

Two anchors are necessary. Different bottoms need different anchors. Plus, you'll need a spare when you cut your first one loose in an emergency. Don't keep them both on the bow, tho. Hell, I keep one in the cockpit locker and one down below. My Valiant 53 will have two side-by-side on the sprit, but that's after I win the lottery.

I'm tired of sleeping in the cockpit with the dragging alarm on my chest. I want NEED bigger tackle, a roller, and a windlass.

Rudder comments

Lots of good info in prior threads, like this one --
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?t=520&referrerid=28

One the sole issue of the rudder and shaft systems having "enough" strength, a search of annecdotal cruising information has shown me that all rudders have a failure point. Note that the skeg concept, which sounds good in theory, in practice has manufacturing / production issues with trying to get a good layup way down inside a skinny pointy mold. It is not at all unheard of for skegs to shear off of boats.

Like most high-end production boats, your Ericson is designed for the ocean, albeit perhaps not for continuous time in the Roaring 40's.

Look to the strength in the shaft (material, ID and OD), the materials and engineering in the armature, and of course the way the shaft tube is glassed in and laid up.

Opinions rendered while U wait. Deposit .02.
YMMV,

Loren

I agree that 2 anchors are very important for an extended cruise...even a weekend cruise. I do however see a second bow roller with the anchor set up as a nice to have but not a needed item. I think a good suitably sized primary anchor like a CQR, Delta or bruce, with at least 35-45' chain and plenty of rode is perfect for most situations, a good fortress or danforth as a second in the locker ready to go.

I keep my secondary danforth and chain/rode in the bow locker, stowed and coiled under the primary chain and rode. I can deploy quickly if I need to but since I have owned our boat...it has never been wet yet. I also keep a 20# mushroom with a snap clip and 150' line in the anchor locker as a sentinal weight for the main anchor rode.

I have a 35# CQR, 40' chain, 250' rode, and a sentinal weight on the rode. I have never dragged even 1 foot in up to 50 knots of wind, in 35' of water. (Block Island, RI) and we anchor every time we go overnight, which is almost every weekend. I think the sentinal has been the saving grace several times, as has making sure the anchor is well burried. This usually means I also have to motor over the anchor, cleat off the chain, and use the bouyancy of the boat to break it free.

I once told my wife when the wind hit 35 we were going to move. 35, 40, 45, 50 came and went. Sure I did not sleep well, but we never moved. Stick with a good primary system and an accessable backup and you will be fine without all that heavy backup roller / chain / anchor on the bow etc. I definitely agree the Ericson 38 is sensitive to forward weight, but for cruising I would prefer a windlass to help with the anchoring job. That would come in much more handy than the second bow roller.

As for the rudder, the Ericson 38 rudder is pretty strong, stonger than many others I have seen over the years, but you can make an emergency rudder that you can attach to your spinnaker pole, (I have a friend who made one out of 1 section of his cabin sole with attach points and a few aircraft type twist screw latches to hold it down and make it quick to deploy - and he always knew where it was...) Carry wood plugs, or solid filler of some kind like styrafoam packing big enough to seal the post if the rudder departed the boat, and try not to hit nuthin.....

I'm not really worried about the rudder. Carrying adequate ground tackle on my 38 for extended blue water cruising could be accomodated. Probably would not store it all at the bow. Installing a windlass and separate rode locker, definately on my list. If you are half way handy with glass its not that big of a deal and you don't have to have it drain into the bilge. Thats why you build the separate locker in the first place. There is a guy on the chesapeake, I'm forgetting his name Neal I think, who is doing this very project on a 34. The issue for me with world girdling in the e-38 is that it is just not my choice boat for that trip. I think it could probably hanldle the trip it just is not the boat I would want to do it in. For one thing:too light displacement. By the time I loaded the gear, spares, tools, water, stores etc the boat would be way too overloaded. Where do you store a RIB? Gotta have one of them for serious full time cruising, IMHO. Mid boom sheeting on that boom offshore? Not so sure based on the flexing I see in 15-20kts and I have improved the load distribution from where it was OEM. There are some construction concerns that make me not pick this boat as my retirement cruiser, not stiff enough for one. Hatches and portholes not really adequate, icebox is woefully underinsulated. This stuff can be changed but the icebox would be one hell of a major project to interior joinery. Don't get me wrong here I love my boat. It is in my opinion THE perfect boat for me to cruise the chesapeake and the east coast, maybe even the carribbean, but not to cross oceans. I do not think the motion of this boat would be the most comfortable offshore. Not saying without modification it could not be done safely. Its just not my choice of boat to do that kind of passagemaking in. Steering downwind in 35-40kts of breeze would be a real pain I am sure as well. Any production boat is a series of compromises as we all know. No one boat is ideal for all scenarios. One thing I think most folks would agree on is that the E-38 was not designed or built for circumnaviagtions. Its a cruiser racer that was designed pretty well and built pretty well and is a pretty damn good cruiser racer. Are there better cruiser racers yes. Are there better production built offshore cruisers? Definately: Pacific Seacraft, Valiant, Halberg Rassy, Najad... When we are ready to go I hope to be able to go semi custom. Sell the house and have a builder produce and boat with the features we want within an existing production hull and deck mold. Calder talks about this some in his crusing handbook.

rwthomas1 said:

That or do we sail the E38 for a few years and start looking for a Valiant 42??

Any input appreciated, RT

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What about an Ericson Cruising 36? I do believe, like the Cruising/Independence 31, these were designed for blue water from the start.


.

My wife and I are in our 5th year of our 6 year plan. The kids are in collage, the house is for sale, the business will go away with a BIG aution, or someone will be mailing us a check once a month till they own it. We pick up the 36C in a few short weeks. End of this summer or next summer at the latest we will be out of here. (Sorry but I will not be able to fund the NY buget by ourselfs anymore )

We looked at the 38 and saw a great boat for the cruising that we will be doing. Then we saw the 36c the day it went up for sale and knew it was meant to be. Sure I got some things to do on it. After all it is a boat. But we looked, studied, and having owned the Agappe E27 for years we knew we couldn't go wrong with this new boat for us.

You all know what the 36c has and has not. But to us the most important thing is piece of mind in your boat. If you aren't happy with the 38 you won't be comfortable cruising it no matter what you put into it.

We'll let you know how things go. Anybody been keeping track of Sid and Manuela in Paradise the 36c that's been out there 10 years.

http://www.boatbumms.blogspot.com/

We'll catch up with them somewhere.

Jon and Arline Libby

1977 36c (no name yet)

Another E-38 blue water thread

http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?t=3906&referrerid=28

Good information and also more links.

Loren

The real question is will you ever go?

I wrote roughly the same post again (is gray hair a symptom of Alzheimer's?) , then deleted it, after reading what I had wrote here http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?t=3906&referrerid=28.

You determine if you go cruising not your boat. Get out there and do it. Every boat can do it.

Guy

OK, that was pretty clear!!
Thanks for your thoughts on this (the one I got to read before you deleted it), especially given your credibility/experience.
Frank.

Just Home from Tahiti (lots of boats smaller than a 38)

Aside from being smaller, they were also not flicka's or other well know small offshore style boats. I believe I even saw a catalina 30, a few old Cal's, etc all under 35 feet. Off course, there were also lots of REALLY nice cruising boats out there as well. The small boats were obviously offshore boats due to the visible wind vane's, solar panels, and self steering systems. My 38 has been to Hawaii a few times as noted by the log book. One thing that it does have is a secondary emergency tiller that can be fitted on the transom. The exterial lockers all lock with internal systems as well as the sliding boards for the entrance. I believe these are all requirements for Catagory 0 offshore racing.

I wouldn't have a problem taking my 38 offshore, but it would take some money that may be better applied to a different boat already configured for it. There is something to be said for having a few thousand(s) miles under the keel of the boat you are taking offshore though. In the 11 months I've owned my 38, I'm up to around 1200 miles and that includes being out of commsion for 6 weeks due to a repower!

A nice valiant 40 or passport 40 would be really nice as well. Of course, I really like my friends Hylas 54, but for obvious reasons that is out of scope.

The key things I would do if I were going off shore would be a water maker, solar panels, self steering, wind vane, and a furlining (in boom) system aside from the obvious EPIRB, Life Raft, and SSB.

Picking the right seasons and keeping an eye on the weather are more important than the boat IMHO.

Shaun

Well there have been a lot of thoughtful responses here and I do appreciate them. I think maybe the reality/immediacy of my wife's calendar freaked me out a bit. Quite obviously all boats are compromises. Going through all the posts, webpages, etc. it would seem that our E38, properly setup, can easily deliver our cruising dreams. Sure, the future may hold a larger more capable bluewater boat. However it is nice to know that if that financially is impossible, the E38 will still get us there! Guy Stevens and CaptRon, Thank you for your webpages that document your experiences. I hope one day in the not to distant future to follow in your wake. RT

Well said

Only comment I could add is in repsponse to Mark A. Your boat-the 34 T was truly a race designed hull, whereas the 38, 35-3's, newer 32, and 34 were shapes with race heritage, but not truly designed for max speed for rating; hence the lack of a roller on your boat, and the inclusion of one as standard on the others. Your boat is even more weight sensitive in the ends than the other models, so adding this comes with a price-but it can be and has been done..
good luck!

S

Guy Stevens said:

You determine if you go cruising not your boat. Get out there and do it.

Guy

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well put........thanx.....