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Line Cutter opinions?

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
We are about to haul out for a bottom job, and some maint. work on the shaft / replace the PSS bellows.
Anyone have an experience with the disk-shaped Shaft Shark or perhaps the Spurs line cutters?
:confused:

Those crab pot floats are mighty hard to see anytime and invisible at night when we are transiting the Washington coast.

Luck has gotten me by for a couple decades, but a friend got towed in last summer with a piece of line/netting caught in his prop. And, he's not the only victim over the years that I know of.

Since our boat will be out of the water for a week anyway, this would be a good time to address this concern.

Your experiences?

Thanks,
Loren in Portland, OR
Olson 34 Fresh Air
 
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Shadowfax

Member III
A friend of mine gave me one because when he changed his prop to a Flex O Fold, it would no longer fit on the shaft. I looked at installling it on my 34 but did not when I found that I had to drill holes in the strut to mount half of it.

I am still dodging the crab pots
 

Cory B

Sustaining Member
Shaft Shark

Loren,

We put a Shaft Shark on our boat this last summer for wherever we decide to go next summer (leave Columbia River, turn right? turn left?). I liked the design of Spurs better, but it required drilling into the cutlass, which I didn't really want to do. The Shark just bolts onto the shaft.

A few years ago heading North we had way too many close calls with crab pots. Not that we'll not try any less in the future to avoid them, but if we fail maybe the consequences won't be quite as bad.

- Cory
 

NateHanson

Sustaining Member
My philosophy is that it's not ethical to put line cutters on the shaft of a pleasure craft. There are no waters more tightly constricted with fishing buoys than the inshore waters of downeast Maine, so I can see the temptation, but each one of those buoys (around here) represents about $100 of gear to the lobsterman that set it. He's out there making a living, and I'm out to have some fun, so I just don't think it's right to have a cutter on my shaft. If I get tangled (and I have) I'll pull up the warp, try to counter rotate the prop shaft from inside the boat, and if necessary cut the warp and reattach it to the float. Then if necessary dive to get any more wraps off.
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Nate is absolutely right, in the general sense.
Our gripe is with crabbers that deliberately set their pot line down a charted channel, in violation of the Regs.

Second problem is that we find the pot lines in well over 300 feet of water, in open ocean. These waters are really really cold and even in summer are rough. It is normal to "fight" our way north, up the Washington coast, against 7 feet seas and winds of 20 to 25 kts in the summer, impeded also by an adverse surface current of 0.5 up to 2 kts. Combine that with the usual 3 foot cross sea, and no one is about to go over the side in their skivies with a knife in their teeth... expecially not us geezer vikings in our 60's.
(It's a risky-to-near-suicide move even at half that age... and I personally know guys that have done it and got back aboard.)
:rolleyes:

No one that I know wants to deliberately "try out" any line cutter device, but it is one small way to bring the odds back slightly into your favor, during night passages and in seas too rough to see those little toggles.
After all, there is only a maybe 50-50 chance that the offending line will actually get neatly severed, just like in the ad! :mad:
And even then, you will be lucky if you do not break a coupler, mount, strut, etc, etc.

Some years ago I wound up with a long underwater piece of poly line in my prop on our Yamaha 10 hp Hi Thrust (25 inch leg) on our former Niagara 26. It killed the engine, anchored us to the bottom of the Columbia river in the middle of the barge channel up near Beacon Rock, and caused the transom to make some interesting creaking noises as it halted our 4K # boat in a couple of lengths! I later reinforced that side of the transom. :rolleyes:

At the time, I was just thankful that, once the motor was tilted up, I could juuust baaarrrly reach the tight-as-iron mass of line and saw it off in chunks with a serated galley knife. We got lucky, and had only an "adventure" rather than a tragedy.
:)

So, yup, we plan to keep on avoiding all of these that we possibly can.

Loren in PDX
 

NateHanson

Sustaining Member
Well, you're right that even a yachtie's life is probably worth more than $100 of fishing gear. (well, maybe not ALL fishermen would agree, but probably enough to make it a safe bet that one will be on your jury.) ;)
 

sailingdeacon

Member III
I agree with all the posts. I have the type that is a single blade and extremely sharp. (not sure of the brand). It requires no maintenance and is less costly. As to the ethics... In NC inland estuarine waters one can find crab pots about anywhere at anytime even though most crabbers do their best. What is worst are those ghosts pots, black from algae and impossible to see. In the Albemarle - except for the N-S intercoastal run way, they can be anywhere and can be 10 to 20' apart. Night sailing is very risky - expecially is one is sailing and these cutters need for the prop to be turning to work. One of the issues I have been told are the immigrants who are flooding the waters with pots... not that I have a problem with immigrants.

Having experience the problems of a wrapped pot line three times from three different sources, and at my age, I have no desire to have a fourth event. It becomes a major and dangeorus event to go overboard.

One major consideration with this cutter: make sure you apply the warning label on the waterline and make sure divers know of the cutter. In murky waters this is a big problem.
 

ted_reshetiloff

Contributing Partner
I have been following this thread for a while now and I am still waiting to hear from someone difinitively whether or not these things actually work? Seen the displays at the boat shows but I have yet to hear a story of them actually working, or better yet not working. Something like: "well we were motoring through a sea of pots in fog and caught one but the line cutter worked and we spit the float out with a cut line so I know it did the job...""Or We got fouled and the line cutter did not work and I still had to go over the side..." I sail a lot a night on the Chesapeake and just make the sign of the cross and hope for the best every time. I try to avoid motoring through the mine fields at night and have not had a problem. I have a feathering prop that I lock in reverse once the engine is shut down. I think these things are a little harder to snag than many may believe because I have run them down so many times and not caught one. Got one on my rudder on my Columbia 28 years ago and hopped over the side and freed it in 2 minutes. Granted the water here is bearable most times of the year and your worst enemy is the jellies. I have never sailed with the line cutters but would really like to hear some testimony to their effectiveness before I shelled out the $$.
 

sailingdeacon

Member III
I definitely share your doubts but I installed one anyway. The only positive the sellor can provide is something like we have never heard of one that did not work.... which does not indicate how many actually cut the line.

And I don't think any of the brands say the line is cut while sailing... You have to be motoring as I understand it. I've wondered if I pick one up while sailing, am I going to brave enough to start the engine and hope it gets cut.

At my age, I really do not want to go overboard in anything less than near flat calm. I once picked up a dingy line and it took a hacksaw to remove the line. I picked up a loose genoa sheet (yes, genoa sheet) in a rough Pamlico Sound. I wound so tight the shaft would not turn even with a pipe wrench. Had to limp into a non protected anchorage for a hellaciouis night. Eventuall the hacksaw overboard. And one final nightmare of an anchor rode wrap. Took a diver for that at night, bent the engine mount bolts! Since then I have mostly chain for the rode, fully floating dinghy painters, and never in gear when furling the genoa (well hardly ever). The one time I picked up a crab pot was in calm water and a quick overboard dive. But I dread the thought of wrapping a grab pot in a big chop motoring... I should also say of course that the Ericson is a fin keel. If a full keel I doubt crab pots would be a concern motoring and especially not sailing.

So in my case the couple hundred bucks is worthy insurance.
 

NateHanson

Sustaining Member
Will these things cut a 1/2" genoa sheet or 5/8" anchor rode? I'd think a 5/16" pot warp would be much easier to cut.

I too am doubtful about how much of a threat pots pose to keel-ed displacement boats. With the prop up under the hull, and behind the keel, the floats tend to get pushed out of the way before the prop can grab the warp. Otherwise, I think we'd snag them sailing all the time (I try to sail through lobster grounds at night, rather than motor), and they occasionally bounce off the hull before they're seen.

I've wrapped a prop twice. Once was on a planing v-hull inboard powerboat, and we hit a raft of abandoned line that was floating under the surface in a mat of seaweed. No shaft cutter would have avoided the resulting 12" ball of assorted line around the shaft and prop. The other time I've snagged line was on a 49 foot full-keel sailboat under power in a 2 knot current. The person at the helm was not accounting for how quickly the current was setting the boat sideways, and drove it right over a pot float. In that circumstance I bet a cutter would have avoided the problem.
 

footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
taut line loose line

This is a good thread - very "safety related." I just wish we had more experiences to share. Have you tried visiting some line cutter websites? Would you trust any "testimonials" you find there? Or, maybe sailinganarchy has a thread or two. Aren't there are a lot of variables involved in the performance of these devices?

I would guess that a line cutter, to be effective, would require either a certain RPM or a certain level of tautness or tension in the line. I bet some line cutter designer/tester could plot a curve of those two values with a bunch of assumptions and line diameters and types of line. You could probably still get enough line wrapped around to stop the shaft and be forced to dive anyway, even if you could sail away.

Bottom line: if the design of it won't interfere with your sailing enjoyment and probably won't create new maintenance headaches or operational problems, then install it. If it keeps you underway and dry just once, or once in three incidents, then it's reducing your exposure to cold, inconvenience, and other dangers. It would be a bummer to find out that the thing had to be taken right back off again after the shakedown cruise around the marina, though.

I unwrapped a line (cored polypropylene braid) from my prop shaft one summer day. Used a combination of manual prop shaft rotation (thanks to my friend for reminding me of the option) and then dove on it with no gear. After a couple deep breaths the line was off. I have a fairly sharp 3-blade featherer. There was a significant override that was near-impossible to overcome without the dive. I'm watching Jaws and I don't feel like diving right now, though.

One end of that floating line was attached to my fiberglass dinghy (which had became a half-submerged fiberglass dinghy) and the other to the cleat on the stern. We forgot to shorten the line before we began to back down on our anchor to set it. It stopped the engine while we were reversing.

No question in my mind why a float in the middle of a dinghy tow line is useful. Not sure about the prospect of hauling up the anchor to chase after the dinghy, but it would be a dry experience, if not less embarrassing.

Good luck and let us know what you decide to do, Loren.
 

NateHanson

Sustaining Member
How much of a danger are these devices to a divers hands? If you DO need to dive to cut a line off, because the cutter's work was incomplete, will you be able to do so without injuring yourself?
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Shark on duty

Getting very close to launch...
The recent snow and freezing temps for several weeks really slowed down the bottom painting. :rolleyes:
Here is a picture of the prop back on. The Shaft Shark cutter is on. New cutlass bearing. The tail cone zinc still needs to go on the prop.

Plan is to splash by mid week.

The "shark" is a sharp little item. I hope it works if we wander into a pot warp. There are no plans to "test" it! ;)

Sunshine has finally returned to PDX, altho nights are still in the low 30's. Days are in the high-40's now. Sunblock time! :D

Cheers,
Loren
 

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NateHanson

Sustaining Member
I don't think the fact that the lobsterman is making a living, and we're out there a few weekends each summer to enjoy a sail, means that we're the bad guy, or that we shouldn't be out there. I just think it is generally crappy to damage someone else's property. All the more so if it is done to people who have a lot less money than we do.

I think the market is dictating the distribution of lobster pot warps pretty darn well. Millions of americans want to eat lobster, so lobstermen put out the number of traps they can afford to keep.

I really don't understand the argument that it's you're right to sail with absolute safety, and that requires slicing the occasional pot warp. I've sailed up here for decades, and yes, there are A LOT of pot warps. It makes sailing more challenging, and I suppose incrementally more dangerous. But so does the rocky coast, the cold water, the fall storms, etc etc etc. I consider it my right to be on the water if I choose, but I don't consider it my right to be completely protected by someone or something from all of the dangers involved with being on the water. If I want to be 100% safe, warm, and dry, I'll stay on land. When I have a prop running, I practice extreme vigilance to avoid pot warps. Usually the best practice is just to shut down the engine and sail when that's possible. At night, when the engine must be run, and where there are lobster pots about, I usually put a spotter on the bow, with a light if necessary. I have gotten lines wrapped around my prop twice, and it's not very pleasant, but it's fixable, and it's part of sailing up here. That's my opinion on it anyways. I do my best not to damage other mariners' gear, and I appreciate that they do the same for my boat/mooring/equipment.

Finally, in the interest of full-disclosure, I'll confess that I enjoy lobster dinners from time to time. I guess I have an interest in keeping lobster prices reasonable, so that's my bias in the issue. :)
 
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Maine Sail

Member III
As an ex commercial lobsterman

My philosophy is that it's not ethical to put line cutters on the shaft of a pleasure craft. There are no waters more tightly constricted with fishing buoys than the inshore waters of downeast Maine, so I can see the temptation, but each one of those buoys (around here) represents about $100 of gear to the lobsterman that set it. He's out there making a living, and I'm out to have some fun, so I just don't think it's right to have a cutter on my shaft. If I get tangled (and I have) I'll pull up the warp, try to counter rotate the prop shaft from inside the boat, and if necessary cut the warp and reattach it to the float. Then if necessary dive to get any more wraps off.


As an ex-commercial lobsterman I can say with 100% certainty that I would MUCH rather have you cut one of my pots then to drag it across six other strings causing a massive tangle that myself and six other guys will now need to spend a few hours untangling and fixing and then buying hundreds of feet of new line that we had to cut out of the tangle.

When strings of traps are laid out by lobsterman they are all laid in one direction depending upon the local you are in. In one bay it could be North to South and in another East to West.

We do this so we never lay across another string of traps. For every pot buoy you see there are six to ten traps connected to it on the bottom. When sailboats snag a pot on a shaft or rudder, and think they are doing you a favor by trying to get it off without cutting it, they are usually not.

Wire traps are LIGHT WEIGHT and dragging ten of them is no problem for a boat with sails up or one in wind and current. Often times what happens is the boat drifts, and drags the the string across a few others. This makes a HUGE, HUGE mess!!

I used to run pot buoys on both ends of my strings as most all fisherman do. Not once did I ever loose both ends at the same time. Replacing a pot buoy is FAR cheaper than loosing 300 feet of warp to a tangle and the time involved in re-rigging and string..

Other commercial guys may not feel this way but that is my take as someone who used to do this. Every time I was in a tangle I was wishing my buoy or someone elses was cut.

I actually detest those type of line cutters, had one made by Evolution in Rockland, ME, and they are VERY, VERY dangerous. Trust me they DO NOT always cut floating line, which we have lots of up here in Maine. When, not if, you need to dive on your prop to cut away fouled line you WILL want a set of wire mesh oyster shucking gloves or you could certainly wind up with a massive gash like I did. Might as well stick your hand into a bucket of razor blades when you are diving in lumpy seas to free a line that the serrated "line cutter" did not cut..

In my experience that type of cutter is fairly useless and they do not always cut the line, been there done that..

Sorry to be so blunt but those things just do not work well enough to keep you from diving and then you run the risk of serious injury! I no longer have a shaft cutter but do have a knife on a pole, a wet suit, dive knife with lanyard and a thick dive hood to prevent head bangs in lumpy seas.




P.S. Loren,

Suggested shaft overhang beyond the bearing, to the prop hub, by industry/ABYC standards is 1X shaft diameter. A little more is ok but much more than that and you can induce some shaft whip and vibration.
 
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Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Apples to Oranges/Crabs to Lobsters

To clarify one little part of this discussion....
Here in the NW Pacific, near shore, we contend with individual crab pots. They are set out in a line, but not connected to each other. Each pot has two or three floats on the surface. A collision with any one of these will tie up your prop thoroughly or, in one case I was present for, the hard float ruined the speedometer paddle wheel (but luckily did miss the prop).

Some of the floats are (helpfully) white or orange or yellow, but others are encrusted with weed and hard to see in any sort of sea state or wave pattern at all. When we see one to dodge, we next go on "high alert" to spot the others in the line and then alter course to cross the line of floats at near to 90 degrees.

All too often, unfortunately, we find a solo pot float -- perhaps moved too far by a storm for the fisherman to find with his gps back-tracking info. And there it waits for someone to tangle up in it. While we expect to find lines of floats (aka toggles) in 50 to 100 feet, we have dodged these darned things in 300 feet of ocean, out of sight of the coast.
As I said before, at night, one just has to depend on luck as well as setting a course well off shore.

The info from Maine about the lobsters and end line floats was new to me, but then I have never have yet visited the right coast.
:rolleyes:

Cheers,
Loren
 
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Sven

Seglare
There is a book called something like "why didn't I think of that" or something like that. It has a bunch of ideas about common boating problems.

One suggestion that I've thought of but have not tried or heard of anyone else trying is to: Attach a monofilament or wire at the beamier part of the boat, some distance under the water and run it back to the bottom of the rudder. Do this on both sides.

The concept is simple, just keep lines from getting close to the prop when going forward. I suspect the execution is another matter. How heavy a monofilament or wire, how do you make it tight enough without making it so tight that it might restrict steering, what about your poor diver who cleans the hull, how often do you check to make sure it is there ... etc, ?

I'll let someone else think about it for a while :)


-Sven
 
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