Ideal Wind Speed & When to Reef

I am not sure this is an answerable question, about "ideal sailing wind", but I think your responses would nevertheless be helpful to many of us. As a relatively new owner of an Ericson 30+, I am still learning how she sails in various conditions, Compared with my previous 23' San Juan, the E30+ feels more solid but also requires more wind to approach hull speed.

The previous owner, and others, have advised that she be reefed around 13 knots and a second reef at about 18 knots (I normally sail with mainsail and 125% furling headsail). My experience so far is that she comes into her own around 15 knots, likes a first reef at around 18 knots, and I haven't had to use a second reef yet, but would guess somewhere around 22 knots or so. I know that these boats tend to sail better at heel angles up to about 15 degrees (o.k. I might be hitting 20 degrees on occasion ). I also know that other conditions, such as waves, gusts, etc. are relevant factors, but for simplicity, let's overlook that for now.

So my question is what are your preferred wind speeds for a good sailing day in your locale, and at what wind speed do you add a reef/2nd reef? I am interested, not only as comparison info. for my E30+, but also as a way of improving my understanding of the sailing characteristics of the various Ericson models.

I'll look forward to your responses and thoughts on this.

Frank.

now wind speed - was I'm not sure this is an answerable question, but....

Frank

I sail a 76 E-29 on Great South Bay - LI

I usually fly a 155% Mylar gen (still crisp) and a full batten main (not so crisp)

She loves 5-14, surprisingly nice in light winds
Cranky at 15-16,
1st reef at a steady 17, reef the gen to about 115%
2nd reef at 20-24 depending on the sea state, reef the gen to 75%

A real hump, up-wind at 30-34 (this weekends forecast was for 9-13, I found out they were wrong the hard way)

15deg heel when the wife is on board. The boys like her at 18-20 even if she is ½ a knot slower and a little tender.

Mike T

Thanks, Mike. That's a great overview! Any others...?
Frank.

Still learning my new to me E35-III. Sails real nice in 15kts, 100% and full main. Do not have a Genny(yet). Was sailing on Sunday in Maine with no main and 75% headsail. Making 6 kts in 18-22 gusting to 30.

Watch The Heel!!

Frank,

I can tell you that the 30+ is more of a light-medium air boat than a heavy air boat-which means only the boat has a lot of sail for the displacement and waterline, and as a result is more easily driven that some other boats (although most e-boats are on the powerful/easily driven/side).

This means compared to other cruisers like Valiants, or Catalinas, or even many Beneteaus/Jenneaus' etc., your boat will approach top speed much sooner than the typical cruiser. It is also slightly "tippier" than most, and as such will be happier with reduced sail at a lower wind speed than some of these lead mines.

When I say "happier", I am referring to comfort and performance. The more you heel past about 10-12 degrees, the slower you go, you make more leeway, and the less comfortable you are. The object once you have about 10-12 KTWS, is to limit the heel-and this can be done with a combination of reducing headsail size and reefing. The exact time to reduce is determined by several factors-if you have a few folks on the rail, it will extend the range where you can carry full sail by several knots of wind speed. If not, reduce earlier. Generally speaking, you should begin by reducing the headsail down to roughly 100% prior to reefing-this is more efficient (especially upwind), once you have the headsail down this small, and are still heeling too much (past about 15 degrees), dragging the rudder, wife complaining, getting passed, etc., then toss a reef in the mainsail.

The point here is NOT that your boat has any problems in heavy air-it certainly does not-the point is that your boat is more powerful than many, and has relatively better light and med air performance than most, and as with all boats with this design philosophy, it may need to have sail shortened earlier than some of the less powerful types....which only come into their own at winds of 15 and up. Trust me, your boat is WELL into its' own at 10 TWS-at least relative to most cruisers.

Some of the answers you seek are not quite as black and white as you may be looking for. Sail size, condition, how the boat is loaded, tuned and sailed will all have an impact on performance and the point at which you begin to reduce sail.

The best advice I can give is not to give into the temptation to let the boat tip over too far as the wind builds-a boat heeled over is a poorly sailed boat. The good ones are kept as upright as possible, and do not carry too much sail for the conditions.

Enjoy!

S

Thanks for your detailed reply, Seth! I appreciate your knowledge and experience with these boats, and the suggestions and cautions you provide. I will certainly continue to incorporate these as I learn more about our boat and become more skilled at bringing out her best.

I am still interested in learning more about the other Ericson models as well to understand their designs and sailing characteristics. So I would still welcome replies from others on this site, as well as the experiences of others in sailing their E30+ boats.

As I mentioned in my initial post, I know that your various responses will be general, and would vary with nature of the wind (gusts vs. steady), waves, number and skill levels of crew, etc.

Thanks again--so much to learn about these boats, and such fun doing so!

Frank.

treilley said:

Still learning my new to me E35-III. Sails real nice in 15kts, 100% and full main. Do not have a Genny(yet). Was sailing on Sunday in Maine with no main and 75% headsail. Making 6 kts in 18-22 gusting to 30.

Click to expand...

I'm curious what others here think about using only a headsail in heavy wind, as I've generally been of the impression (from my experience and others' advice) that sailing without the main in heavy wind or choppy seas doesn't give the mast enough support. I've seen the stout mast of a Hinckley 38 pump more than I'd like in these conditions, and therefore only sail with head-sail alone off the wind in light airs and calm seas (usually because I'm out alone and lazy).

In heavy wind and seas, with a double reefed main up, I barely see any movement in the mast, presumably because the main is stiffening the mast.

What are other people's thoughts on this?

Nate, I recall a previous discussion about this issue on this site, and the general consensus was that the mast on the Ericson boats is strong enough that mast pumping or forward bend is not a significant issue unless one is in extreme conditions. Of course this assumes that rig tune is reasonably good, without any extra "slop" in the shrouds, etc.

Personally, if I sail with just headsail in more than moderate winds, I add some tension on the backstay adjuster to ensure the mast doesn't bend forward with the pressure of the headsail--but I tend to worry a bit too much about such things, and it likely isn't necessary.

Frank.

Thanks Frank. I'll look for that previous thread.

I'd think this might be a different issue for a fractional-rigged boat like the 30+ than it would be for a masthead rig. I would think it would be harder for a fractional-rigged mast to pump much if the rig is tuned well.

Nate, I agree that it might be a bit different for a fractional rig, as the headsails are usually smaller than on a masthead rig. However, the previous post on this was not specific to the E30+ or fractional rigs, but rather, covered all the Ericsons.

Frank.

We have the deep fin keel and a 150 furling genoa and a full batten main. Older North Sails but still somewhat crisp. Sailing to weather, with apparent wind at 15knots, she is very happy with all sail out, heeling to 15-20 and achieving hull speed. More wind, more fun, up to a steady 20 knot wind, just on the edge of rounding with the rail kissing the water. Then it is time to either reef the main or reduce the head sail with more wind. My bride of 33 yrs (captain) thrives on 25-30 degree heel. Yes, I am a lucky man! Great boat, great wife. Yeh, I know, the boat slows down over 20 degree heel but one must keep the captain happy!

Kim, thanks for your post. Sounds like you have it all figure out: great boat, great sailing, great wife and her being captain!!

I also appreciate that these boats sail best when sailed relatively flat, but sometimes it's fun to have them heeled 20 - 30 degrees, rail down, occasional wave over the bow, etc.

Before I found our E30+, we had considered both the E32-2 and the E35, but couldn't resist the E30+ because it was in really good shape, in our price range, available fairly close to home, and just seemed right for us. But I still admire the 32 and 35, and sounds like they sail really well!

Frank.

rambling rigging thoughts

Speaking very much 'in general" I would note that the pull from the head stay is directly counteracted by the support from the backstay on a masthead rig, and much less so on a fractional.

Fractionals can pick up additional aft support if: their shrouds are swept aft some, and, from runners or check-stays.

Note B: in big chop, where the hull is slowed abruptly by wave force against the bow, the mass of the whole rig (mast, sails, and weight of all rigging) all wants to keep on going when the boat slams into the wave. You want to control this idea... lest ye hair-pin the spar on its way past the bow.

That's why the mainsail can help some, when sheeted in tight going to weather. Off the wind, having the shrouds angled aft or the presence of aft lowers on masthead rigs helps with this. Note that the upper part of the mast does not benefit from your aft lower shrouds, and that can create a need for more support, like runners. You see runners rigged on Ericson 33's and Olson 34's, although not used in protected waters on either boat. For instance, for river sailing, we have never used the runner tails, and have the runners secured just behind the chainplates. Unlike the vast majority of E-boats, we Olsons have in-line shrouds, putting us on the fringe of this discussion.
(I do have 15 years experience on two different fractional-rig boats prior to the Olson, though.)

IMHO, It seems like all the E-boats are strongly and conservatively rigged, which provides much peace of mind, right from the git-go.

Loren

Frank,

Not to venture off the subject too far. When we first started sailing my father inlaw presented me with a very nice copper plaque that says "The Captains Word Is Law". Then he said "you just have to figure out who the Captain is". I looked around sheepishly and pointed at my chest indicating that I was the captain. He said "GOOD LUCK".

Kim, thanks for that interesting anecdote--very wise father (I wonder if he learned that from experience )

It might be an interesting new thread sometime to ask others who their captain is on their boat, how they use their crew, etc. On the other hand, it could be the start of something....

Thanks again.
Frank.

Ditto Loren

Again.......!

He is making all the right points. I would add that for typical breezy conditions, and especially when the seas are not too rough and/or you are reaching/running, provided you have reasonable mast tune, I would go along with the headsail only rig on all of the E-boats in question if that were "feeling right" at the moment.

I have done it myself when feeling lazy more than once, and sure, you won't point as high as you would with some main up, and yes, there is less mast support. But as long as you are not punding into the big-uns, I think you'll be OK this way.

Best to let sleeping Captains lie. And BTW, I do not have all figured out with regards to sailing Windfall. Just new to us about one year ago. Always learn something every time we go out. That in itself, is the mystery of sailing. Conditions are never the same.

What about rig balance?

I have a 28+ which I understand to be a close sister to the 30 and Seth's comments about the sailing characteristics of the 30 seem to apply to my boat as well. I do have a question regarding sailing with the headsail only. Aside from stressing the standing rigging (which does not appear to be a huge issue) what about the balance of the rig? It seems to me that especially in a significant wind the bow would easily get blown off without any main up to balance things. I'm generally kinda nutty on balancing the rig (like to sail with no hands on the wheel!) so I've never really tried just flying the headsail when its blowing - I'll reef both sails instead. Any thoughts from those who know about this stuff?

No biggie

The 28/28+ does have very similar qualities to the 30+ but even more so. Being a chopped off 30+, it has somewhat less form stability, and hence somewhat less sail carrying abilility.

Having said that, I have to interject a comment. I noticed I may have offended some of the happy 33 owners with my comments in comparing it to the 36. I DO feel the 33 is not quite the overall performer the 36 is for RACING. It does not have as much ballast/displacement, and as a result is a bit tippier and can't sail "full power" (full main and 150/155) into as much breeze as most boats in the rating range, so upwind in breeze it could be considered slightly lackng compared to say a J33, Frers 33, J 30, J 29, etc. It should even out downwind, but on a W/L course this may not work out in your favor. The only way to offset this is carry a LOT of BIG guys on the rail in big air.

It is an excellent hull shape, great interior, and super cruiser racer. The comparison was mostly vs the 36. I DO like the 33 very much.

Same thing for the 28/28+-I have made similar comments about the 28 series which may have sounded disparaging-I did not mean to do this-only to put it in relation to the 30+. My apologies to those offended.

Now-as to the question at hand: If you sail the 28 headsail only in bigger breeze, I think you will find the sailplan imbalance largely offset by the heeling you will see in these conditions (heel causes weather helm). In fact, since the 28 is actually slightly helmy to begin with (I think the CE of the sailplan is slightly too far back for ideal balance anyway), it will likely steer quite well with just a headsail in most conditions. In breeze, I doubt the bow will blow down to any real degree.

Cheers,
S

For Seth (and others)

Jeez, Seth, if you contort yourself any more to avoid offending anyone, you'll risk becoming like a pretzel!

While I can't speak for others :0305_alar , I sure appreciate your openness in describing both the strengths and possible weaknesses of various boats, based on your knowledge and experience. I would rather know what I have to contend with, and make the necessary adjustments, than have your comments "sugar-coated" and less knowledge conveyed.

On the other hand, that might be easy for me to say, given I've got such a great boat...

Please keep the helpful comments coming!

Frank