Battery life and charging.

Tom Metzger said:

...Two is the right approach because, unless someone repealed ohm's law, batteries charge according to need, not the label on the case. Batteries do not have to be the same size to charge in parallel. This assumes that all of the batteries are of the same type, flooded, AGM, or gel.

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Though I spoke of the manufacturers recommendations, the real concern is about leaving the switch in the wrong position after disconnecting charging. Without installing a combiner which adds even more cost and complexity, one can upgrade from the Group 24 to a 27 on the starting battery for a relatively small increase in cost and not have detrimental effects from leaving the switch in the wrong position off the charger as humans tend to do.

Tom Metzger said:

John - I'll try play nicely.

...Think Ronco. Damn, I did it again.

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Now we have a reference for what "I'll try" means.

Tom

Great post. Sorry you feel that way. As I learned at Georgetown Law School most people get off message.

I asked for ideas on improving the efficiency of my AC DC icebox. I received many such ideas. Learned a tremendous amount and have identified a deficiency in my Penguin (galvanic isolator).

Of course I appreciate all the keystrokes and when I sail to the cool waters off La Paz I will upgrade my system or forget the cold beer and revert back to scotch.

Actually two 27's may be more cost effective.

I have brown hair and feel free to drop by SoCal and have a beer. I'll even give you my old insulated LLBean boots (I don't need them), seems upstate NY might have a long winter.

Thanks everyone for your wise and thorough assistance.

John

Dealing with stray AC

Our speaker at the monthly YC meeting last night was an ABYC rep.
He was adamant that, in spite of the weight (about 80#) an isolation transformer was far safer than a galvanic isloator. He claimed that the G.I. would be a cheaper solution *only* if it lacked the required circuitry to notify in case of an open ground (or something like that).

We also learned that these set of "standards" from the ABYC are all voluntary at the OEM level and this whole set of industry-agreed-upon "rules" exists to stave of direct Federal intervention/law making.
He acknowledged that we owners are getting short shrift when our insurers mandate ABYC "rules" on us, and then ABYC will not even give us a copy of the rules without a hefty dollar payment.
I just checked their site, and while it now purports to have a PDF d/l capability, it does not seem to function.

I still wonder about installing a "zinc saver". Adding 80# of transformer to our small boat is a non starter of an idea, FWIW.

Thanks to all for the education posted here thus far.

Loren in PDX

Galvanic Isolator should meet ABYC

I installed the Guest 30 AMP GI (2433-P) that meets ABYC regs (has full time status monitoring -- only the Plus model has this) in my boat. It was easy to install, weighs 3.5 lbs. and is small enough to fit behind my AC panel. I don't know what an Isolation Transformer sells for, but size and weight alone are enough to keep me from looking. West Marine currently lists the 2433-P for $147.77 (I bought mine off the web from somewhere -- forget where). After opening the box, I discovered that the remote indicator (2400-RI) is sold separately (something I still need to get and install since my GI is behind my AC panel and its monitoring lights can't be seen).

John

Sometimes it never ends.

As I said earlier this is such a severe issue for a sailor the information that has been disseminated here is PRICELESS

John

Priceless

Because my existing system works just fine, the only exception is my need for cold beer, so if I isolate that need (no I won't give up the beer) why screw with my existing system.

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I assume "priceless" means having no value.

Tom

"priceless |?pr?sl?s| adjective
so precious that its value cannot be determined : priceless works of art"

I usually don't go to this length correcting one's understanding of our common language.

The advice I received from all, including you, was most appreciated.

John

Loren Beach said:

Careful lest we reinvent our own AC/DC version of this (in)famous internet bit of dry humor.

"The Lightbulb Thread"
Question: How many forum-ites does it take to change a lightbulb?

...

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Loren I liked you post but for Christ's sake this is a battery and charging thread. You could have least mentioned LEDs...

FWIW, here is how my system is wired up:
Battery bank #1 = (3) group 31 wet cells all paralleled together
Battery bank #2 = (1) group 31 dedicated starting battery
Standard 1, 2, 1+2 and Off battery switch, banks wired as numbered
Xantrex 20amp AC battery charger
Stock alternator on Universal 5432 engine.

The Xantrex charger has TWO charge leads so it automatically charges both banks when it is turned on, regardless of battery selector switch position.

I never use the start battery for anything but emergency starting. Occasionally I switch the selector switch to "both" when running the engine to top off the start battery. This is rare as I use a Honda 2000watt portable generator to recharge my batteries when I need it. I hate running the engine, the boat is on a mooring and I motor infrequently so engine charging with a stock alternator/regulator is a waste of time.

My AB refigeration system sucks the juice down quite quickly, something like 5amps per hour? The insulation in the icebox sucks too. The Honda has to run every day to keep up even out for a weekend. This is not so bad as the Honda is VERY quiet and I try to run it either in the early evening during peak electrical use or while I am off the boat for a few hours, etc. Even if I don't charge while out for a weekend then I need to leave the Honda running for a long while once back on the mooring. Some may be uncomfortable leaving a running generator on the deck but it has not been an issue and I don't see why it would.

My solution is multi-pronged:
-Increasing house battery bank to 460Amp/hr. of 6volt golf cart batteries.
-Installing Ample Power alternator/regulator (in basement now)
-Installing Xantrex 2000watt inverter w/100amp charger integral
-Installing Link 20 or 2000.
-Tearing out icebox this winter to install new, thicker insulation and Glacier Bay icebox lid.

Solar panels and/or wind generator are distant future possiblities.

There are a couple of things going on here. The poorly insulated icebox is a power hog. The quickest and easiest fix is more/better isulation and a really good lid. This will help more than anything. The second issue is charging the batteries.

The trouble with battery chargers is they often don't deliver the amps needed to truely recharge batteries quickly during the "bulk" charge phase. AFAIK, when charging a battery from the 50% discharge state to 80% charged, the bulk phase, this is the stage when the battery will accept the most energy in the shortest period of time. It makes sense to utilze a charger that can deliver lots of energy. The Xantrex inverter/charger has a 100amp charger built in. This will charge my batteries much faster during the bulk phase than the 20amp unit currently installed. The added benefit is AC power when I want it and automatic switching from inverter AC and dockside AC.

The upgraded Ample Power alternator/regulator will also help. Although I don't run the engine all that much the upgraded units will perform far better than my stock setup. At least when I do run the engine there will be serious output from the alternator and far better charge control with the new regulator.

Whats this all mean? At the end of it the system will be able to run for longer before needing recharging and the recharging will be faster and more efficient.

The way I see it this will make the boat more comfortable, useable and safer. Safer you say? Hows that? More Amp/hrs means that in nasty weather the radar, autopilot, gps, nav lights, etc. will last longer. This is really nice if for some reason the engine quits.....

Are all these things needed? Depends on what you want to do. Honestly, if I was jkm and just needed to keep beer cool I would look seriously into reworking the icebox or simply using ice. I "jumpstart" my refrigeration system with 3 blocks and 2 bags of ice every weekend trip. They are usually only 50% gone after two days. Ice is pretty cheap compared to all the crap I am working towards. To each his own. I just wanted to show where I was coming from when I make recommendations on this kind of topic. RT

The ABYC is reviewing the requirement for indicators on a GA, but the point is moot anyway since you can't buy them any other way that I'm aware of, and the Price of $140 is not out of line. $140 sounds more like the 50A unit. Anyway, an Isolation Transformer's performance no matter how you measure it, is not vastly superior to that of a Galvanic Isolator....the price is, however.

howard keiper

rwthomas1 said:

... This is rare as I use a Honda 2000watt portable generator to recharge my batteries when I need it. I hate running the engine, the boat is on a mooring and I motor infrequently so engine charging with a stock alternator/regulator is a waste of time.
...

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Rob, since it sounds like reducing charge time away from the dock is desirable you might want to research the AGM batteries. They will reduce your charge times but at 2-3 times more cost. On the other hand if the diesel is used to charge them the engine will have less of that undesirable low load hours.

Concerning using that little Honda on deck I'll pass along a quote from John Payne in DIY Boat Owner 2006-2 pg. 9 of the Ask the Experts section:

"Never, ever use a portable gasoline generator on your boat. These units are not intended for use in our near your boat's accommodation spaces and there are too many documented cases of carbon monoxide (CO) poisoning and fatalities occcuring from the use of these handy little power makers."

At the very least I would recommend that a CO detector be used when operating a portable generator. I know that CO poisoning degrades the brain's capacity to reason through the problem successfully.

Neal - How much time can you save using AGMs if the alternator is limited to one 3/8" belt, which is what all of our engines are built for? Sounds like 70 - 80 amps to me. That works fine for flooded cells too. Doesn't sound too smart to pay 2-3 times as much for roughly the same charging time.

Just curious, does your Rolex give better time than my Timex?

batteries, smatteries

Tom Mertzger said:

Neal - How much time can you save using AGMs if the alternator is limited to one 3/8" belt, which is what all of our engines are built for? Sounds like 70 - 80 amps to me. That works fine for flooded cells too. Doesn't sound too smart to pay 2-3 times as much for roughly the same charging time.

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Tom, I'm glad that you brought that up; that's what the research part is about. There are in fact even more AGM characteristics to consider other than faster charge times.

As far as the charge time benefit that depends what you mean by "roughly". On the 200 amp-hr bank the wet cell will accept at about 25% or 50 amps. The Lifeline AGMs I use will accept the whole 70-80 amps so there's a 40% to 60% improvement in charge time. To some that difference may sound roughly the same and to others it may mean something.

Speaking of charging, according to the USCG the risk of an AGM blowing up like a wet cell is considerably less (I apologize for not including a picture of the Hindenberg disaster here). I personally witnessed an automobile battery wet cell explosion and it was not a pretty sight with sulfuric acid sprayed over half of the engine compartment but fortunately not on the mechanic. As you know the batteries in our E34's are directly beneath the pillow end of the aft cabin. Sleep on it, or not.

The benefits of AGMs go on and that is why I suggested to Rob to do his own research. That 2-3 fold price difference isn't just about increased charge acceptance. There are characteristics of AGMs which make them more resilient and maintenance free. In some circumstances those factors in a real world application can increase time to failure and thereby decrease cost of ownership.

I suggest that anyone who is considering AGMs consider all of the factors instead of the single factor that Tom just pointed out.

Tom Mertzger said:

Just curious, does your Rolex give better time than my Timex?

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Why Tom, is your Rolex giving you trouble ? I do know that my drugstore Casio watch works fine and though not an AGM it does not have a wet cell.

If you still need to compare watch accuracy then right now on my Casio the big hand is on the 15 and the little hand is on the 5.

You guys need to fall back a couple of yards and see where you've taken this thread. Preceived superiority of Rolex vs. Timex??? Even without a Galvanic Isolator???
howard keiper

Howard Keiper said:

You guys need to fall back a couple of yards and see where you've taken this thread. Preceived superiority of Rolex vs. Timex??? Even without a Galvanic Isolator???
howard keiper

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Howard, please understand that timekeeping wasn't my idea. Plus the last time I checked I don't even have a Rolex unless someone like Tom sent me one.

The galvanic isolator is a sore spot with me since mine is the old style without a monitor which I do understand is no longer worthy.

Please don't feel that way about your Isolator...It's functionality is the important thing, not whether it provides indicators that tell you if it's working. I guess the assumption is that if you know it's installed correctly, then it is (working). It might be a leap of faith but there are a lot of boats without one at all and no one will ever know the difference.
...just one of those things!

Definitely, definitely worthy!
howard keiper

worthiness

Howard Keiper said:

Please don't feel that way about your Isolator...It's functionality is the important thing, not whether it provides indicators that tell you if it's working. I guess the assumption is that if you know it's installed correctly, then it is (working). It might be a leap of faith but there are a lot of boats without one at all and no one will ever know the difference.
...just one of those things!

Definitely, definitely worthy!
howard keiper

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Howard, I certainly do appreciate the clarification and better news on the GI. Now I'm off to bail out our hanger queen minivan which I can say for certain is not worthy !

Howard Keiper said:

The ABYC is reviewing the requirement for indicators on a GA, but the point is moot anyway since you can't buy them any other way that I'm aware of

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Howard Keiper said:

I guess the assumption is that if you know it's installed correctly, then it is (working). It might be a leap of faith but there are a lot of boats without one at all and no one will ever know the difference.
...just one of those things!

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I disagree with Howard. Monitoring is not all there is to the ABYC standard for a GI. A GI is part of the shore power ground system. This is not something you want to compromise. From my research last spring, not all GIs are equal. From a safety standpoint, it is important that an installed GI complies with ABYC. At least as of last spring, there were still GIs being sold that did not comply with ABYC (and don't assume a GI installed by a PO meets ABYC -- check it out)

Not having a GI (like Ted) is perfectly safe and all you have to do is keep the boat unplugged most of the time to protect against galvanic corrosion. Having a GI that is faulty is dangerous if it is not going to properly ground your shore power. That is one of the ways it can fail.

My $.02 -- I have no credentials to back this up, but I researched this issue last spring.

Neal, Rob, Howard, John, Tom

Amazing information in this thread.

After getting a look at my icebox I'm going to completely envelope it in at least three inches of expanding foam.

Some difficulties in achieving this, but it can be done, mostly.

Going to start the disassembly Saturday

Will report in

John

No room for foam.

John and all, It might be of interest to you that the placement of the ice box in my E31 could have been a bit more well thought out. When on the occasion of my boat being out of the water, in the yard for periodic work and when the atmospheric conditions and air temperature are just right, I can actyally see a spot of condensation about the size of my open hand form on the outside of the hull right through the bottom paint where a corner of the ice box is in contact with the hull. The old Adler Barbour keeps it cold in there and as a result is the cause of the condensation in that small spot on the outside. This, to the observation that there's no way anyone could get three inches of expanding foam into that corner, much less for some diatance in any direction from there. Furthermore, I'd have to scar up (drill through)the pristine, vintage, fake-wood Formica outboard of the ice box in order to get any foam between the box and the hull. : - ( Glyn, E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey CA