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Battery life and charging.

Howard Keiper

Moderator
I tend to agree with John...except that my gut tells me that I'd feel really good about having a unit that was top of the line 5 yrs ago even if it doesn't have the new bells, whistles, and LEDs that todays models have. Technological evolution doesn't automatically damm a perfectly good device. In this case, the high quality GI bought some years ago, given that it was manufactured by a reputable company, was considered to be state of the art. Some GIs made today are marketed 'with capacitor'...probably a good thing(?), but jury's out on that one.
howard
 

Tom Metzger

Sustaining Partner
OT - According to some

Howard - The originator of this thread didn't give a damn about where the thread went, if you remember. He is sticking to abusing his batteries after picking everyone's brain for a few daze.

In the meantime there have been people spreading questionable info with a religious fervor.

Rob, since it sounds like reducing charge time away from the dock is desirable you might want to research the AGM batteries. They will reduce your charge times but at 2-3 times more cost.

And the story changes:

I'm glad that you brought that up; that's what the research part is about. There are in fact even more AGM characteristics to consider other than faster charge times.

As a point of fact, I put 70 amps into two grp 27 flooded cells without breaking a sweat. Deep cycle flooded cells will accept 35-40% of the nameplate rating. Do your research, as the man says.

Compared to the risks of driving, sailing, or crossing a street, the dangers of a lead lead acid battery are insignificant. To make one explode takes some effort, like shorting the battery terminals with the caps off. It's not easy to come up with a 4% concentration along with a spark.

There are some advantages in using AGM batteries, but the majority of us will not take advantage of them. Boats are designed with battery boxes low and upright. Alternators that can barely charge flooded cell batteries.

If you have a reason that AGM batteries have an advantage for you, by all means buy AGMs. Just don't rush into it because someone else "has done the research" for you.

Enough said.

BTW, Defender sells a 50 Amp galvanic isolator without monitoring for about $95.
 

NateHanson

Sustaining Member
Too much drama.

This has been an informative thread, but can we leave the egos out of it?

Different people have different opinions, and they're all helpful in forming our own conclusions. That's what makes it a "discussion forum".

I'm involved with another very large forum, as a moderator, and by comparison I've always been impressed at how civil and well behaved this board is. So the odd thread where there's a personality clash becomes particularly glaring against the backdrop of such pleasant conversations.

My 2c (certainly off-topic)

Nate
 

John Butler

Member II
BTW, Defender sells a 50 Amp galvanic isolator without monitoring for about $95.
That would be the Yandina. It also does not have a capacitor. Yandina explains the capacitor issue on their web site, describe a test to see if you need one (it's not a safety issue, but you might not get good galvanic corrosion protection without it), and offer one for sale to install with their GI:
http://www.yandina.com/GIsolCap.html
 

CaptnNero

Accelerant
concurrence

...
As a point of fact, I put 70 amps into two grp 27 flooded cells without breaking a sweat. Deep cycle flooded cells will accept 35-40% of the nameplate rating. Do your research, as the man says.

...

If you have a reason that AGM batteries have an advantage for you, by all means buy AGMs. Just don't rush into it because someone else "has done the research" for you.

I don't doubt that 35-40% claim one bit. At the same time the specific manufacturer Trojan recommends charging at only 10-13% of their amp-hr rating for their flooded cells. Others claim otherwise. The 25% figure I used has some common acceptance for flooded cells also. YMMV. That is why I advocate researching it seriously, and by that I mean for your own individual needs. I originally suggested only considering AGM technology, which I certainly did not intend to be done in a rush. In the end one needs to weigh the benefits as it applies to oneself and make a value judgement.

After all of this traffic Tom, I think that in significant ways we are after all on the same page, and maybe someday we will be on the same pond as you can imagine.
 

Shadowfax

Member III
Neal,

Tom has been seen sailing on the Chesapeake. Get him to tell you what he use to do for a living before retiring. He drinks too.
 

jkm

Member III
Howard

I ended using your method for installing expanding foam-very neat and not intrusive.

I put three cans behind the box and tomorrow may complete the job. One can went thru the inside of the bank of draws-very clean.

To remind all, especially Neal, I insulated the inside of my box with Aluminix. I have two layers on the bottom with a 1" airspace between the two layers.

I'm quite enthusiastic that emulating Howard is going to work. I still can't escape his cooler that he installed-brilliant job.


John
 

CaptnNero

Accelerant
...
To remind all, especially Neal, I insulated the inside of my box with Aluminix. I have two layers on the bottom with a 1" airspace between the two layers.
...

John, when you gave that positive report last summer I went right ahead and used the Reflectix on mine. It only took about a half hour with a measuring tape and scissors to make a well fitting inner liner. Thanks for the feedback. We've found that the surface is tough enough to survive the weekend food shuffling, at least for the half season that we used it.
 

rwthomas1

Sustaining Partner
Rob, since it sounds like reducing charge time away from the dock is desirable you might want to research the AGM batteries. They will reduce your charge times but at 2-3 times more cost. On the other hand if the diesel is used to charge them the engine will have less of that undesirable low load hours.

Concerning using that little Honda on deck I'll pass along a quote from John Payne in DIY Boat Owner 2006-2 pg. 9 of the Ask the Experts section:

"Never, ever use a portable gasoline generator on your boat. These units are not intended for use in our near your boat's accommodation spaces and there are too many documented cases of carbon monoxide (CO) poisoning and fatalities occcuring from the use of these handy little power makers."

At the very least I would recommend that a CO detector be used when operating a portable generator. I know that CO poisoning degrades the brain's capacity to reason through the problem successfully.



Given that my brain possibly already has a "degraded capacity for reasoning" I have TWO CO detectors onboard. Recently one went on the fritz, it was going off when I got to the boat one afternoon. No CO source operating for a week..... The other was fine.

I always get a kick out of the "Never, ever use..." statements. As an informed adult who understands the risks and takes precautions, it is my decision to accept the risk if I choose. I understand the issues and only run the generator setup "just so" to avoid problems. I also do not spend time in the cabin while it is running. The Honda was the best bang for the buck compared to solar or windcharging. I am never at a dock long enough to charge with shore power. The little Honda has been great for keeping the batteries topped off and I can use it for other things.

I looked into AGM's and while they are great for certain applications I don't want them. I am that anal retentive person who religiously checks electrolyte levels, cleans the terminals, the cases and maintains a well-charged house bank. My "gauge" on batteries is how many discharge cycles they will provide. AGM's provide no advantage here. Most marine batteries will only provide 300-350 discharge cycles before crapping out. 6volt golf cart batteries will provide up to 700 discharge cycles. Properly cared for they should easily outlast any marine battery. That is important to me. RT
 

jkm

Member III
All

I contacted the Trojan Battery company on Friday and the tech I spoke with dismissed the concept that a deep cycle marine battery suffers any long term damage if it is drained down to zip.

I then went to a Ship's Store and was told the same story regarding the 4D batteries.

Is this a sales pitch???

John


PS
My icebox is so insulated, I inserted five cans of expanding foam around it.

Howard's method of inserting the foam worked the best.
 

Tom Metzger

Sustaining Partner
More Georgetown Law School games?

Trojan says in writing:

Discharging batteries is entirely a function of your particular application. However, below is list of helpful items:

1. Shallow discharges will result in a longer battery life.

2. 50% (or less) discharges are recommended.

3. 80% discharge is the maximum safe discharge.

4. Do not fully discharge flooded batteries (80% or more). This will damage (or kill) the battery.

5. Many experts recommend operating batteries only between the 50% to 85% of full charge range. A periodic equalization charge is a must when using this practice.

http://www.trojan-battery.com/Tech-Support/BatteryMaintenance/Discharging.aspx
 

CaptnNero

Accelerant
Given that my brain possibly already has a "degraded capacity for reasoning" I have TWO CO detectors onboard. Recently one went on the fritz, it was going off when I got to the boat one afternoon. No CO source operating for a week..... The other was fine.
Sometimes they'll find people in a CO poisoned house from a faulty heating system or a car left running in the garage. For the ones that survive the conscious ones are typically unaware of a problem other than having a nasty headache.
I always get a kick out of the "Never, ever use..." statements. As an informed adult who understands the risks and takes precautions, it is my decision to accept the risk if I choose....
As long as one understands the risks and properly manages the risks there can be a good result. I've got a one of those little Honda's myself but haven't used it on the boat, though I may use it some on long cruising vacations. I think I mentioned in another thread that a propane conversation kit is available for it. I understand that propane as fuel will produce a difference in the exhaust components so that needs to be researched also. In the end I expect the same measures to manage the risks since it's still an internal combustion engine.
I looked into AGM's and while they are great for certain applications I don't want them. I am that anal retentive person who religiously checks electrolyte levels, cleans the terminals, the cases and maintains a well-charged house bank.
Between the boat, the rv, the cars, and the lawn tractor I decided I was doing too much battery maintenance, let alone other maintenance. Plus I liked the lower self discharge rates for idle, off charger equipment; I just don't need to charge and check those AGM batteries as much in the idle months now. So now only the cars need much attention and as you'd expect they are the only ones that get year round use and frequent charging.
My "gauge" on batteries is how many discharge cycles they will provide. AGM's provide no advantage here. Most marine batteries will only provide 300-350 discharge cycles before crapping out. 6volt golf cart batteries will provide up to 700 discharge cycles. Properly cared for they should easily outlast any marine battery. That is important to me. RT
I know what you mean. I ended up with 6volt AGMs but I did come close to getting the flooded 6volt ones first. With the 6volt I also like that they are still a manageable weight with good energy density for one person installation compared to the 4 and 8 D's. Last summer I helped a friend with a Nauticat replace some 4D and 8D batteries. Believe me, we had to work very carefully between the boat and pier.

Because of the slightly taller 6volt batteries and the limited depth for the batteries under the aft berth in the E34, it worked out better to install the 6volt AGMs on their sides without having to raise the bed height or lower the bottom of the battery box. However I did need to rebuild the battery box without violating the ABYC specs on distance from the fuel tank aft of the batteries.
 

jkm

Member III
Tom

Thank you for clearing that up.

I felt from all the posts in the many threads I read that the 50% rule was fairly accurate, so you can imagine my surprise when I was given contrary advice.

I thank everyone for your time and wise advice. Especially Neal, Howard, Nate, Rob and even you Tom (though I think you're a sanctimonious jerk).

John
 

Emerald

Moderator
keep the tone in line

OK guys,

let's try to keep our passions under control. This thread has had much good info, even if it has generated frustration for some as they have expended their energy trying to help. So, let's keep our online community as friendly as possibly.
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
I second what Emerald said.
Note also that you can go back and "edit" your own post any time you want to -- to clarify a point, fix a spelling error, or change some text that seems a little, um, insenstive upon further reflection.

Heck, I have been known to remove an entire post of mine when I looked at it a day or so later, and realized that potentially pissing off another member was not making me feel so smart afterall!
:devil:

Problem with the 'net is there really is no nuance... and even cute little emoticons do not really make up for it.

(Reminder to self: keep trying to remember this!)

:rolleyes:

Regards,
Loren

ps: I just found this nice battery life article while rummaging around the 'net:
http://www.mpoweruk.com/life.htm
 
Last edited:

CaptnNero

Accelerant
Ain't the beer cold ?!

Dear John,

You are welcome to my support if it helps in any way to keeping the beer cold and ready.
 

stuartm80127

Member II
Stray current eating away zincs... too fast

Hi John,

You had mentioned that your Zinc's were being consumed too quickly due to shore power.

Have you looked into isolation transformers which will electrically isolate your boat from your neighbor's faulty wiring which may be causing the stray current that consumes your Zinc's while you are in the slip?

Another thing that I did way back in the 80's was to buy a large zinc plate and connect it to a 10ga marine grade wire which connected to the (-) part of my electrical system which was connected to the engine block and most metal parts on the boat. I would toss the zinc into the water and watch it get eaten up while everything else was just fine.

Stuart
 

jkm

Member III
Stuart

That is a brillant solution given that replacing the stock zinc runs around $ 25.00.

Your "Farmer's Almanac" solution is something I'll do.

John
 
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