How do Ericsons compare.....

Actually it was Bob's link

I copied it from his earlier post maybe I missed part of it. I concur 100% with Lorens other comments.

i just re-read my post and think i was very bitter sounding.. there are reasons why the catalina 30's are so popular. they are really well suited for coastal cruising / inshore sailing. they are easy to handle, and hard to push over onto it's rails, so they make a great first boat or step up from a daysailer. but they were designed and manufactured to be inexpensive. there are a lot of corners that were cut, and in my opinion quality that was compromised, to save money and crank them out quickly. but you would never notice or care about that if you were just sailing inshore when the weather is nice which is what most people do.

i made the mistake of sailing on and really looking at beneteau's, c&c's, and ericsons while i had my catalina. there really is little in comparison. had i known at the time i would have held out for a E30+. for about the same price, but such a better boat...

comps and forumlas

Loren Beach said:

Hi Neal,
Looking for the boating version of real estates "comps" or something like the automotive BUC book is rediculously tough for low-volume sail boat models, IMHO. Even when it works, the key is finding models with big production runs, and then you have the equally-large problem of geography and the high co$t of trucking your boat to another area of the nation.
Savy buyers of used sailboats have looked for the "affordable circumnavigator", Cascade, for several decades. No change in design of the 29, 36, and 42, and the later 27. All are Robert Smith designs, with moderate beam-length ratios, and fin keels. All the hulls are solid roving, and they still have the test piece of hull layup with with 30-06 slug embedded in it to prove the strength!

...
Later,
Loren in PDX

ps: Ted, I could not get your link to work, so I went to that site and did a search on "Hunter Quality" and got zero matches...

Click to expand...

Hey Loren,

Thanks for filling in the blanks on the Cascade. Your details do explain how such a low production vessel as the Cascade can remain in production so long after all of the ups and downs in the sailboat industry. Please do mark me down for another of those deposits.

All kidding aside, I certainly do appreciate your posting the Cascade history and details.

You may have noticed that I was careful not to comment on the used pricing of the Cascades. As for determining boating comps, indeed, it is inherently tough for low production models since the technique is based on aggregates. With the low production models you are forced to sample outside of the direct subject model and the free variables can go wild on you. The BUC book seems to work from flat depreciation formulas these days which suit the finance compaies that help us buy these boats just fine. BTW, the boat finance companies buy a lot of the used boat value books.

Tartan and C and C

I thought it worth noting that in the midst of the last gasps of the resurrected Ericson and Pearson lines, in 1997 Tartan took control of C&C. They are still different productions today and of course they have been careful to avoid competing with each other. The other choices would have been to consolidate and kill one brand, or spin both into a new brand.

In would be interesting to know how the two brands evolved since the 1997 buyout. Apparently the Tartan designer Tim Jackett had a heavy hand in the newer C&C line.

In a parallel development two of this thread's subjects which the consensus seems to place towards what I will refer to as the Hunter category are Beneteau and Jeanneau (spelling verified, FWIW). Beneteau swallowed Jeanneau in 1995 and the two brands have lived on separately.

A few years ago an old British made cruiser line called the Southerly re-launched in the US market. The Southerly is in the shoal cruiser niche with drafts as little as 33" on a roomy 45 footer by use of a grounding plate under the hull and a big iron swing keel. Apparently they saw an opportunity in the gunkholing cruising that we do at least on the right coast and world cruising. The reason I bring this up in this thread is that they hired Rob Humphreys recently to redesign increased performance into their fleet, while retaining the swing keel. He has now sired three new models which are dramatically different than the old models, even on paper. So apparently Southerly (owned by North Shore) has seen the need for increased performance in their cruisers a few years after re-entry into the US market. I did notice huge price increases since they came back to this market a few years ago as the exchange rates have tilted. Before the exchange rates took off, the Southerly was already a rather expensive item.

ps- I learned to spell Jeanneau by doubling all but the first and last letter and then unscrambling.

"We instantly knew the Ericson was right for us, ..."

Super thread, I love reading this stuff when everyone is being respectful. Much more pleasant experience all the way through. Congrats everyone.

I just have to echo Capt. Nero. We looked at plenty of boats in the 34-42 ft. range, late 70s to early 80s. There were a C&C 36 & 38, several J-35s, one or two Hunter/Catalinas (which I admit to being biased against after my chartering - too much plastic inside the newer ones), a Tartan 37 or two, a Schock 35, and so on. Our preference list was important to us as far as features - fin keel, some "performance pedigree" whatever I thought that was, open interior layout, wide side decks, good owners sleeping arrangements, separate shower, 35-42 ft. length, and most important $70K was about all we were willing to pay.

One of the first boats we looked at was a 1979 Tartan 37. What a beauty. Probably would have been a fine boat for us. It had been raced, but it appeared to have been well cared for. We resisted and I think that was a good decision. The 1980 Ericson came much later but was listed well above the price cap. But talk about dock appeal. They both had it, but the Ericson interior was what we ended up focusing on. The interior was "original," as far as we could tell (still think so). The Yachtie items like the wine rack, lazy susan, and the wood stove ( poorly thought out location) we actually liked. Since we're not going around the world, I think we'll keep the cabinetry as-is. The wood stove is going out this fall, though. We want to hang a picture and use the shelf for stuff.

After this last two-week trip, we think we can get 2 weeks worth of food and supplies aboard. As long as we can either go ashore, pumpout or pump overboard, we think we can go with two people that long without re-provisioning.

We found this excellent website while in the midst of agreeing on a price. We couldn't be happier with the boat or the support we've received. We hit our price point, too.

Ericson Value

OK Ok, I have to weigh in a little at least.

Horses for courses as they say ... we have owned (over the years and among others) a Catalina 25, a Tartan 34 an Edel 35 Cat, and now Kismet our 1983 E-38.

We spent a lot of time in research and boat shopping for a boat we thought we could afford in the 40ft class. We were after a boat to cruise Florida, the Bahamas and Caribbean and possibly up the US East Coast in our retirement.

We wanted a certain level of comfort (at sea and at anchor), a certain level of sailing and motoring performance, and shallow draft ... we were not looking for specific features such as fin keel or walk around queen beds. We also wanted Hinckley quality for $50k ...

Our short list included the Tartan 37 (big sister to our old Tartan 34 which we loved), the Sabre 38 (nice but very pricey), Pearson P40 (fast but cave like inside), Morgan 38 (Brewer design), Hood-Waquiez 38, Little Harbor 38, (both too pricey) O'Day 39 & 40 (poor construction), the Bristol models in this class were also too pricey for us.

When it came down to deciding, we compromised on the draft issue in favor of better stability and performance numbers and ultimately compromised on motoring performance to get better construction and sailing performance. Not that the Ericson has poor motoring performance, it's just under powered with 32 hp. Should be at least 50hp (for serious cruising) in my opinion.

The Tartan 37 and Morgan 38 are both way slower boats and the Morgan's v berth is way too small. For performance comparisons, we used PHRF ratings. The Ericson is predictably faster than all of the above although about even with the P40. Even though we're not racers, we wanted to sail once in a while and a poor sailing boat just means you end up motoring more... when was the last time you saw an Island Packet actually sailing?

While PHRF numbers are not an absolute indicator, if you compare your short list boats against ratings from a number of different areas of the country, you will get a fair idea of relative performance.

We discarded the Hunters altogether because we never saw one over 10 years old that looked like it had any life left in it... Mostly very cheap hardware. We liked the Catalinas but except for the Catalina 42 most have poor stability numbers. Beneteaus are even worse and their draft was out of our limits for our cruising ground (Florida and Bahamas).

The Ericson 38 came out on top because it has the performance, comfort, seaworthiness and construction quality we wanted at a price we could afford (at least here on the east coast).

We have not been disappointed.

If you think you see one you should have already reefed

Captron said:

... when was the last time you saw an Island Packet actually sailing?

...

Click to expand...

Around here when I start seeing Packets sailing it's time to think about reefing.

Nice write-up CaptRon, thanks for the details of your acquisition process.

The GRIN factor

CaptnNero said:

Around here when I start seeing Packets sailing it's time to think about reefing.

Nice write-up CaptRon, thanks for the details of your acquisition process.

Click to expand...

We have some close friends who are cruising on a Island Packet 35. We had them aboard our Ericson 38 one afternoon for a sail, in about 12 kts of wind - which was enough for us to easily make over 6.5 kts at the time. They were amazed how "fast" our boat was, and said in those conditions they would have been going 3 to 4 kts.

BUT, the amount of room they had down below was amazing - so everything is a trade off.


In our case one of the best things about owning our E-38 was what I call the GRIN factor. We didn't always have the largest boat in the anchorage when we cruised, but we sure enough had just about the prettiest boat around. I just love the old style shear line of the 38 - a real classic. It would bring a grin to my face whenever we approached the boat in our dinghy in any anchorage.

Comparing boats

I dug out the old spreadsheet we used to compare boats for sailing qualities and since it might be of interest in this discussion I thought I'd send it along. Please read the notes attached to some of the cells as they explain some of the assumptions and opinions influencing outcomes. Also there's quite a long line of thinking that goes along with this ... defining requirements and such.

here's the link to the whole article ... the spreadsheet download link is at the bottom of the page.

http://members.toast.net/captron/comparing_various_boat_designs.htm

You can easily add/delete/change rows to suit your own comparisons.

As the originator of this post, I really appreciate the many thorough and thoughtful replies this post has generated. Thanks for all the great information--and if you have more thoughts, keep them coming!
Frank.

1997 E-380

The discussions in this thread ignore the difference between PSC-built and Ericson-built boats - - maybe there isn't any???

My interest in Ericsons dates to when PSC started building them because I have always been impressed with their Crealock-designed cruisers and the quality of their construction. At one point I considered a Crealock 37 but decided against it because I like to sail fast and have no plans for offshore voyaging. Three years ago, I was contacted by Crusader Yacht Sales in Annapolis re a 1997 Ericson 380 in "immaculate" condition which was offered by a very motivated seller. We drove down to see it and were surprised that it was in fact immaculate and quite well-equipped with a Panda genset among other neat toys. It also had a PERF of 113. But timing was not right and we passed up the opportunity. I later learned that this boat sold for ~$154k and we later referred to it as "the one that got away."

For the past 5 years, I have been rebuilding my Seidelmann 295 which I originally intended to keep until I realized that I'd rather sail the boat than fix it. So I started looking for another E380 based on what I learned during that visit to Crusader YS. I passed up the opportunity to buy an E380 that had a trans-Atlantic under its belt because of a crack in one of the triaxial grid beams. Then in February 2005, I saw hull #22 where it was being stored in Rhode Island and bought it. Although I have been very happy with my choice because it is a high quality construction of a beautiful and fast design, I have not been as impressed with the construction as I had hoped. The previous owner told me that a PSC factory manager told him that PSC simply couldn't make Ericsons at a profit, given the production line efficiencies of their competitors. This is why PSC doesn't make them anymore. It also explains some of the production short cuts I have seen in #22.

Nevertheless, since acquiring #22 last year, we have done the following and now have a beautiful, fast, practically new boat which would probably cost ~$300k if production was current. It's not perfect, but it comes pretty close given the type of sailing we do.

Awlgripped topsides
Relocated radar, chartplotter, and instrument pods at the helm
Rebuilt and mounted custom cockpit table
Installed Edson inflatable and O/B brackets on stern rail
Added Lewmar sheetstopper to deck
New winter cover
Replaced Treadmaster non-skid in companionway
Stripped and varnished all interior teak
Stripped and refinished cabin sole with "Ultimate Sole"
Installed curtains, new custom shower curtain, custom bedspreads
Installed 16k BTU A/C and aft stateroom fan
Installed bulkhead-mounted flatscreen TV
New interior cushions/fabric
New marine mattress for V-berth
5 new Mastervolt batteries
Expanded stowage in galley
Replaced all head hose
Replaced and relocated evaporator in ice box

Vince Benn
Wild Blue

Is that a beautiful sight or what. You're a lucky man Vince

I bought my Ericson because I wanted a solid boat with nice lines.

I've not been disappointed.

John

Cal 39?

I don't see Cal 39 in Ron's list. There are a few of those around. Although many are deep draft, there are some with shoal draft. Does anyone have any insight on how a Cal 39 compares to an Ericson 38 from the early 80's.?

I ask because we were looking at a 1984 Cal 39 Mk III (aft cabin/deep draft version) at the time we bought our 1982 Ericson 38 (shoal draft). I wanted to go with the Ericson and my partner preferred the Cal 39. A friend of hers who spent many years in the boat repair/maintenance business recommended the Ericson over the Cal (not seeing either boat) and that's what finally swayed her. Recently she found out that the Cal 39 sold for only a couple of thousand over what we paid for our Ericson and she thinks we missed an opportunity there.

John

How could one miss an opportunity or go wrong by buying an Ericson over any other boat?? (Sorry, couldn't resist...)
Frank.

Not a bad choice

To be honest, the Cal 39 is an EXCEPTIONAL boat. They are well built and very fast-for reaching and running, maybe even better than the E-boat.

In the big picture thay are so close in overall desireability that it should come down to personal preference, but we should not knocjk our Cal "sister"!!

Great info from everyone. About the Catalina 30, my wife and I owned an 81 for 10 years and being land locked on a large lake in North Idaho (Lake Pend Oreille) this boat was just perfect for our needs at the time on this lake. This was a step up from the Tanzer 7.5 big time for us. The early 80's Catalina 30's still had gobs of cabin teak and had not started to pinch the pennies on the interior like they did later on. I would recommend the 30 Cat to anyone should their needs be similar to ours. A very predictable boat that was stable and felt secure in a big blow. We would still have that boat if the 84 E 35 mrk III hadn't come up for sale last fall on our lake. Knew the PO and the boat for about 8 years. Made the mistake of test sailing Windfall. Yep, we were hooked in about 2 1/2 nano seconds. Only then did I start to realize the big hooplah about Ericson's. Every time we are on our boat, our appreciation grows for the quality, craftsmanship and performance that makes an Ericson what it is.

jkm said:

Is that a beautiful sight or what. You're a lucky man Vince

I bought my Ericson because I wanted a solid boat with nice lines.

I've not been disappointed.

John

Click to expand...

Yep, I saw the interior on Vince's Wild Blue at the Chesapeake raftup. The finish was superb too. Just after we anchored he circled us and I didn't recognize it at first with the shiny PSC stainless portlights.

Longivity of Ericsons

I have owned my Ericson for over 12 Years It sails every Sunday 52 weeks of the year mostly racing It cruises for weeks at a time (we put drawers in)!
as seen by some of you at several rendezvous. Cut rectantagles put in sliders
found drawers from other boats that matched and they look like have been there forever. but I degress, what has gone kaput has nothing to do with the design or building of the boat . It has been due to suppliers of the products Ericson bought to put in as equipment etc. She sails well has saved our lives many times, We have sailed THe Canadian Gulf Islands and the American San
Juans and as far south as Olympia, and North to Desolation Sound . I can attest to the fact that an Ericson IS FOREVER. it cost more because its worth more.

Charlie "EDEN" E 30+ hull #720

Charlie, how/where did you put the drawers in your E30+? Can you post some pictures?
Frank.